Creative Town Hall Discussion

[Yaz]

First off, I want to say thank you to everyone for another great Kingdom Come. Everyone came with solid efforts to help make it possible to put on something most seemed to enjoy.

Now as we take our traditional post PPV/KC break, we are looking into a few ways to bridge the gap between creative and the fed at large. One idea we had was to open a discussion and allow the fed to voice their opinions.

Obviously we want this to be civil, but we are opening the floor to suggestions, criticisms, and any general questions you may have. We will take a few days to allow people to participate and get their voice out there, then we as a team will take a few days to address what you guys bring up.

So feel free to drop something below. We look forward to hearing from you.

-Yaz

[BK201]

If I have one criticism from Kingdom Come X compared to previous ones (and please keep in mind I thought it was a very well written show and thoroughly enjoyed it and all those involved should be very proud), it would be that it felt less...epic, I suppose, than previous iterations. Like, the times when halfway through a match where it would get to a crucial moment, and then...

You'd have it in...A couple of these!

That's one example, and it isn't the end of the world, but the show itself felt more...intimate? I don't know if that's fair, and I don't know if that's even a criticism, more just an observation. Other than the match cards, it didn't feel like there was much to separate it from any other WZCW show. That's still a high bar, but I feel we've hit higher. Having said that I am probably thinking back in the days of WZ when things were WAY healthier.

No idea if I explained myself well there but hey, I tried!

[Jeff Deliverer of Mail]

I've suggested this before, and it's a bad idea but I'll throw it out there again because I'm bored. With the loss of another member, creative or not, the fed numbers are low. With no new people joining on the horizon I think we could have secondary characters. I think with our secondary wrestlers we just make a new profile for them in application thread for creative to approve or not to approve. We don't have to RP with these secondary wrestlers. Their performance will be loosely tied to our main characters RP performance. They can never beat another main character unless the main character no shows. They can't win titles unless the title holder no shows. So if the card looked like this...

Xavier and Freddy G vs RMK and Alec Dinkleberry

Xavier's RP is outstanding
Freddy G is a property of Stormrage, his RP was So So
RMKs RP was awful
Dinkleberry is a property of D Carl's and his RP was also So So.

Xavier's team clearly wins with Xavier getting the best parts of the match.

It also gauges a Main Character to have somewhat squash matches.

Example: RMK's RP is awful. His side character Drunk The Clown is taking on Milenko who had a good RP. Milenko's character can have a dominating match on the card now and give the writer something to work with and the character looks good overpowering his opponent.

Plus it would be easier filling out match cards and writing a short match here and there instead of all epics. It would make the workload a bit heavier but you'd be able to have more tag matches, the odd Battle Royale here and there, silly segments where the side character is humiliated or something you wouldn't dream of doing to damage the rep of your main character.

I think it would be fun to try if everyone got behind it and would give a more comforting illusion that we had a larger fed to the members already playing and perhaps an outsider looking on, they could see it thriving with a larger roster and want to join in.

[Kermit]

First, I want to thank Spidey and all those that still remain on Creative for the work they put in. I know from experience the time commitment that it takes and the creative energy that goes into making something consistently good.

I want to make a few observations from my own perspective.

-----#1. I've noticed that the "extra" discourse outside of role playing has all but vanished. I think the most obvious reasoning is that the fed as a whole has less people in it. However, I've seen inklings in discord that suggests the interest and passion is still there to generate discussion.

On the topic of discord, I've always struggled with keeping up with the structure. I'm going to sound like an old man when I say this, but discussion seemed a lot easier to follow when each thing had its own respective thread on the forums. Sometimes, with conversation being pulled in different directions, it can be hard to get fully vested in a conversation on discord.

I will say that this a general opinion of mine, as I am a member of several discord servers, but I have always felt discouraged about participating in conversation because of the way it is structured. I might be in a vast minority on that one.

-----#2. I do agree with BK on the fanfare of Kingdom Come X. I still think the show was spectacular, but there wasn't the typical build or hype that I remember from past events. That is as much on the community as a whole, as it is on Creative. However, I do feel like someone needs to spearhead those type of things.

-----#3. I think some basic cleaning-up would be nice. One of the first things I did when I got back was head to the General Guide in the backstage section to see who was on Creative. It still has Dave listed as Head of Creative and Dagger as an active creative member.

-----#4. I saw the post on discord about needing help on Creative. Unfortunately, for me, my priorities have shifted. As much as I love the fed, I don't think I could commit to helping. Honestly, I think for the sake of longevity, it might be time to consider how to maximize the work being done and the workload being put on Creative.



Below, I just want to kind of spitball some ideas that could maybe change the workload put on Creative members. Maybe some of the ideas below could possibly attract more people to the other side of the curtain.

Ideas to Shorten Time on Reading RPs

*Have a character-limit on non-PPV shows. (Less time spent reading RPs for Creative)

or

*Have a character-limit for non main-event talent

------------------
Ideas to Shorten Time on Match Writing

*Introduce a "Main Event"-esque show where certain talent is booked on non-PPV rounds. Their matches are written in quick summaries. (This doesn't have to be a demotion. Throw in a beefy main event every once in a while. I personally wouldn't be offended if I was booked on this type of show. In fact, sometimes I would prefer to read match summaries for matches that are not my own.)

and/or

*Write shortened matches except for main events on MD and AS.

and/or

*Consider how to shorten the match-writing process. Shortening or even cutting things like entrances and commentary.

and/or

*Have some RPing for "events" than matches. As in, who gets the upper-hand in a verbal battle and/or contract signing?

------------------
Other Random and Mostly Stupid Ideas

*Turn PPVs into a community collaboration. Have Creative take the four biggest matches, and then divvy out the rest. If no takers, offer an incentive. Offer a mid-card title shot on the following round to all contributors. The worst thing that could happen is a little shake-up.

*Re-open the tag division. Allow people to RP as a one-man team with two characters. They could also be occasionally booked in a single match as one of their tag members. However, they won't be allowed to RP in two separate matches.

*Since brand wars seems to have recently spiked in popularity, why not run WZCW in a traditional sense, but try some of the new ideas on a "separate" show. Essentially, it would still be like you have MD and AS, but your second show would now be another company.




Anyway, I hope you know you guys deserve a lot of credit for the quality of work you put out on top of your daily lives. I just hope something above or something someone else suggests can help make WZCW an easier place to keep alive. Much love <3. Cheers!

[Fallout]

I've suggested this before, and it's a bad idea but I'll throw it out there again because I'm bored. With the loss of another member, creative or not, the fed numbers are low. With no new people joining on the horizon I think we could have secondary characters. I think with our secondary wrestlers we just make a new profile for them in application thread for creative to approve or not to approve. We don't have to RP with these secondary wrestlers. Their performance will be loosely tied to our main characters RP performance. They can never beat another main character unless the main character no shows. They can't win titles unless the title holder no shows. So if the card looked like this...

Xavier and Freddy G vs RMK and Alec Dinkleberry

Xavier's RP is outstanding
Freddy G is a property of Stormrage, his RP was So So
RMKs RP was awful
Dinkleberry is a property of D Carl's and his RP was also So So.

Xavier's team clearly wins with Xavier getting the best parts of the match.

It also gauges a Main Character to have somewhat squash matches.

Example: RMK's RP is awful. His side character Drunk The Clown is taking on Milenko who had a good RP. Milenko's character can have a dominating match on the card now and give the writer something to work with and the character looks good overpowering his opponent.

Plus it would be easier filling out match cards and writing a short match here and there instead of all epics. It would make the workload a bit heavier but you'd be able to have more tag matches, the odd Battle Royale here and there, silly segments where the side character is humiliated or something you wouldn't dream of doing to damage the rep of your main character.

I think it would be fun to try if everyone got behind it and would give a more comforting illusion that we had a larger fed to the members already playing and perhaps an outsider looking on, they could see it thriving with a larger roster and want to join in.

I know I'm not a part of the fed anymore, but this seems like a really good idea. If I did ever come back (and I'll be honest, I have entertained the thought), I'd want to run a lower-card comedy gimmick to add some depth to the roster and play more of a utility role rather than write to win like I used to. That's the main reason I've quit the last few times: It was less about having fun and more about writing good pieces of fiction whilst juggling IRL commitments.

Part of the problem I always had is that a lot of the gimmicks people created for themselves were always geared to be main-eventers eventually, and a lot of people simply don't reach that level, get frustrated, and abandon the fed. That's obviously not to say those people should be awarded straight away for joining, but it would be good if new characters could cut their teeth and be given a chance to shine in an initial push, like wrestlers in real life. If someone has designed their gimmick to be akin to Brock Lesnar and loses week after week, then yeah, it's partly on them to get better, but it's also worth throwing them a bone to entertain their gimmick. Put them against jobbers and let them find their feet with their RPing style. There's no need to take such a cutthroat attitude like real-life wrestlers and demand people "pay their dues". Maybe being a little more lax with the no-show rule could help, unless the person entirely abandons the forum with no trace. Just have them lose their match if need be.

Something I will bring up is that there's often a big disparity between the individual commitments people have to the fed. Some people care about it enough to be an active participant of Creative, and write long, gripping RP's on the regular. Others see it as just a way to kill a few hours. Kermit's suggestion of a word-limit for RP's would be pretty helpful in reducing the load for Creative (maybe an 1000-word limit, that's enough for a story story). It's part of the reason why universities have a maximum word count for essays; it would be unfair on people who wrote concise essays in comparison to someone writing an odyssey. People simply have different demands in their lives.

[Jeff Deliverer of Mail]

I'd also encourage more discussion (Fake or real) in the WZCW Discussion thread or make a special one just for a quick promo from the wrestlers apposed to 99.99% of us using WZCW Discord to talk about everything. Using Discord is good, but it also shuts the door off to the outside world who might be watching or interested. They could view the complete lack of discussion as a dead federation apposed to one with very loyal members.

[Gazprom]

The biggest issue the fed has is that numbers aren't being replenished. Lots of long termers have all left relatively recently, and we are getting very few people in to replace them. Guys like Milenko, Ty and Kermit coming back is what is saving it, but if you look at the people currently involved in the fed, there are probably fewer than 5 that weren't or hadn't been involved 5 years ago. Naturally, we're not getting any younger as a group which means that people have more responsibility and less spare time. This effects creative first as they have to find more time, and everyone just gets more and more jaded. I don't know what the solution is, or even if there is one. Moving to Steel Cage was a last throw of the dice and I hope that it will be fruitful, but the lack of passing trade happened way before the whole exodus - the Discord made the fed look inactive, and being on an otherwise inactive forum was the end. By the time I joined the Discord, there was only me and Dagger I think who hadn't signed up to it. It gives the community strength, but it completely prevents outside people stumbling upon the fed. Unfortunately, with the low traffic here at the best of times, and WZ being even more dead, I don't think the tide could ever turn. So its about advertising elsewhere, on other efeds but I wouldn't even know where to start.

None of this was forseeable or anybody's fault, but it is the perfect storm that has put us in this position.

I'd say the only way the long term of the fed can be protected is to implement some of the above ideas. Secondary characters is a decent idea, but you have to shorten Meltdown and Ascension. They take too long to make, which removes the fluidity of the shows. The time between RP and the show is just too long and it removes the buzz. Again, not pointing fingers, we're just all busy people - I said I'd write this on Saturday afternoon, and it's now Sunday evening.

As for the actual creative side, I've never applied because I don't fancy the idea of writing matches, to be honest. I will potentially reconsider this given the current climate but I need to think about it. As a result, I try not to pass any judgement on those that do put in the effort. My literal only disappointment, having lived in the Middle East and seen the kind of thing that goes on first hand, was that I found the whole Blood Money Lethal Lottery thing a bit tasteless. I know it's parody and it's not a big deal, but there we go. As a suggestion, I think it would be good for people ahead of the 'new year' to expect everyone have a sort of manifesto or big picture aim instead of an RP in the first round for where they want their character to go and what their aim is. The show that follows would try to set those up. Obviously, you can't satisfy everyone but not everyone will want to send PMs detailing plans, and people get jaded if their plans don't align with creative.

I don't know. I hope that helps.

[Slyfox696]

By the time I joined the Discord, there was only me and Dagger I think who hadn't signed up to it. It gives the community strength, but it completely prevents outside people stumbling upon the fed. Unfortunately, with the low traffic here at the best of times, and WZ being even more dead, I don't think the tide could ever turn. So its about advertising elsewhere, on other efeds but I wouldn't even know where to start.

None of this was forseeable or anybody's fault, but it is the perfect storm that has put us in this position.I am just going to comment on this, but stay out of more e-fed specific discussion.

The SCF does not (currently) have advertisements and there are no current plans to include advertisements. That means there is literally $0 coming into the forum and I host at a (relatively small, approx $100 a year) financial loss to myself. As you said, advertising is one way to get new members, but there is no forum money to put into something like that. So if you want to start advertising, you'll have to either be creative or figure out a way to pool some funds together.

Honestly, the best way to do it might be to just do social media advertising. Create a WZCW Facebook and Instagram or whatever else (if there is not already one) and start aggressively pushing content on a regular basis. But that would mean the fed would need a dedicated social media manager and, as you said, time is a big consideration.

[I.is.Sawa]

So, I'm just going to put it out there, I have been abhorred by the attitude of a creative member and his "I'm right, your wrong and if you don't agree, shut the fuck up" attitude, I literally, do not ask questions anymore or even have faith in y'all, because all I usually get when I talk to other creative members is just come to one of us, but yet, if we want to apply for creative or pitch something we have to go to that certain member. the belittlement on discord is ridiculous, and I had felt like last show was very WWE like with the ending and the pushing of the same characters. I cant even ask questions to endings that make NO SENSE in fear of being put on blast in a main chat on discord or even be told "well, your just upset because you lost." And when I bring it up to another creative member, all I ever get told is "im sorry that they where being a dick to you, but that's how they are and theres nothing we can do about it."

[K_Web_V4]

So this might ruffle some feathers, but i need to get it out. Cuz my biggest complaint is how Lee makes me feel like my opinions and ideas don't matter. I don't participate in this Fed as much as I used to (posting in random rp, offering to guest write etc) because of how abrasive he is. He does it to others, I've witnessed it, and it's basically "well that's Lee, you can just not communicate with him and msg a different person if you need something". I've almost quit the Fed multiple times because of Lee, and no it wasn't cuz I lost, it was cuz I was made to feel insignificant. I used to LOVE this Fed, now I just like my character and a few other ppls characters. I also feel like creative doesn't always fully read ppls rps and that they just skim them, and that it can feel wwe at times(imo callie Clark is like Roman reigns, always relevant even when not involved in a main story)

But my main issue, and it's been an issue for over a year is how unwelcoming Lee makes even offering ideas or suggestions. It's why i stopped trying to be on creative, it's why at times my effort can come off as lacking. I want to love this Fed again, but I feel like the biggest obstacle for that is the way Lee treats ppl. I don't wanna post something like this on a thread where you guys are asking for our honest feelings, complaints, concerns etc, and then have my post used against me going forward, when creative asked for us to vent etc

In the past I've went to yaz and at least 3 other creative members about Lee and all I ever get told is ignore him. Ignoring him just makes me lose my affection for the fed because I wanna contribute more, I wanna help when I can and I wanna feel like I matter to the fed, and for awhile now, Lee has been a huge impediment to that.

Rn I don't feel important to the Fed, and it sucks tbh. I miss craving to be more involved. I just think creative as a whole needs to be more welcoming and not get so defensive when criticisms come there way. Nobody wants to give their opinion and be told, no you're wrong

I don't ask to guest write, apply to creative any of that extra stuff because doing so would make me have to deal with Lee. I feel I could help out alot, get some fresh blood in there but tbh I do this for fun, and Lee makes it stressful.

I enjoy writing, but sometimes Lee and others on creative make me feel like why even bother?

Sorry if this is harsh, but it's my honest feelings.(and Lee is more than welcome to dm me to discuss further if he wishes)

[Lee]

If I have one criticism from Kingdom Come X compared to previous ones (and please keep in mind I thought it was a very well written show and thoroughly enjoyed it and all those involved should be very proud), it would be that it felt less...epic, I suppose, than previous iterations. Like, the times when halfway through a match where it would get to a crucial moment, and then...

You'd have it in...A couple of these!

That's one example, and it isn't the end of the world, but the show itself felt more...intimate? I don't know if that's fair, and I don't know if that's even a criticism, more just an observation. Other than the match cards, it didn't feel like there was much to separate it from any other WZCW show. That's still a high bar, but I feel we've hit higher. Having said that I am probably thinking back in the days of WZ when things were WAY healthier.

No idea if I explained myself well there but hey, I tried!

The spoilers were removed when in WZ at least 2 years ago now, the reason was for archival side of things it was a pain and we found more often than not people found them annoying. I definitely have those sentiments with KC as well, it's something we've chatted about and are aware of.


I've suggested this before, and it's a bad idea but I'll throw it out there again because I'm bored. With the loss of another member, creative or not, the fed numbers are low. With no new people joining on the horizon I think we could have secondary characters. I think with our secondary wrestlers we just make a new profile for them in application thread for creative to approve or not to approve. We don't have to RP with these secondary wrestlers. Their performance will be loosely tied to our main characters RP performance. They can never beat another main character unless the main character no shows. They can't win titles unless the title holder no shows. So if the card looked like this...

Xavier and Freddy G vs RMK and Alec Dinkleberry

Xavier's RP is outstanding
Freddy G is a property of Stormrage, his RP was So So
RMKs RP was awful
Dinkleberry is a property of D Carl's and his RP was also So So.

Xavier's team clearly wins with Xavier getting the best parts of the match.

It also gauges a Main Character to have somewhat squash matches.

Example: RMK's RP is awful. His side character Drunk The Clown is taking on Milenko who had a good RP. Milenko's character can have a dominating match on the card now and give the writer something to work with and the character looks good overpowering his opponent.

Plus it would be easier filling out match cards and writing a short match here and there instead of all epics. It would make the workload a bit heavier but you'd be able to have more tag matches, the odd Battle Royale here and there, silly segments where the side character is humiliated or something you wouldn't dream of doing to damage the rep of your main character.

I think it would be fun to try if everyone got behind it and would give a more comforting illusion that we had a larger fed to the members already playing and perhaps an outsider looking on, they could see it thriving with a larger roster and want to join in.

We've tried the multiple character thing a couple of times, what happens is very quickly people will no show for one and not the other. One will always be favoured. We could try that again if the fed so wishes.


First, I want to thank Spidey and all those that still remain on Creative for the work they put in. I know from experience the time commitment that it takes and the creative energy that goes into making something consistently good.

I want to make a few observations from my own perspective.

-----#1. I've noticed that the "extra" discourse outside of role playing has all but vanished. I think the most obvious reasoning is that the fed as a whole has less people in it. However, I've seen inklings in discord that suggests the interest and passion is still there to generate discussion.

On the topic of discord, I've always struggled with keeping up with the structure. I'm going to sound like an old man when I say this, but discussion seemed a lot easier to follow when each thing had its own respective thread on the forums. Sometimes, with conversation being pulled in different directions, it can be hard to get fully vested in a conversation on discord.

I will say that this a general opinion of mine, as I am a member of several discord servers, but I have always felt discouraged about participating in conversation because of the way it is structured. I might be in a vast minority on that one.

-----#2. I do agree with BK on the fanfare of Kingdom Come X. I still think the show was spectacular, but there wasn't the typical build or hype that I remember from past events. That is as much on the community as a whole, as it is on Creative. However, I do feel like someone needs to spearhead those type of things.

-----#3. I think some basic cleaning-up would be nice. One of the first things I did when I got back was head to the General Guide in the backstage section to see who was on Creative. It still has Dave listed as Head of Creative and Dagger as an active creative member.

-----#4. I saw the post on discord about needing help on Creative. Unfortunately, for me, my priorities have shifted. As much as I love the fed, I don't think I could commit to helping. Honestly, I think for the sake of longevity, it might be time to consider how to maximize the work being done and the workload being put on Creative.



Below, I just want to kind of spitball some ideas that could maybe change the workload put on Creative members. Maybe some of the ideas below could possibly attract more people to the other side of the curtain.

Ideas to Shorten Time on Reading RPs

*Have a character-limit on non-PPV shows. (Less time spent reading RPs for Creative)

or

*Have a character-limit for non main-event talent

------------------
Ideas to Shorten Time on Match Writing

*Introduce a "Main Event"-esque show where certain talent is booked on non-PPV rounds. Their matches are written in quick summaries. (This doesn't have to be a demotion. Throw in a beefy main event every once in a while. I personally wouldn't be offended if I was booked on this type of show. In fact, sometimes I would prefer to read match summaries for matches that are not my own.)

and/or

*Write shortened matches except for main events on MD and AS.

and/or

*Consider how to shorten the match-writing process. Shortening or even cutting things like entrances and commentary.

and/or

*Have some RPing for "events" than matches. As in, who gets the upper-hand in a verbal battle and/or contract signing?

------------------
Other Random and Mostly Stupid Ideas

*Turn PPVs into a community collaboration. Have Creative take the four biggest matches, and then divvy out the rest. If no takers, offer an incentive. Offer a mid-card title shot on the following round to all contributors. The worst thing that could happen is a little shake-up.

*Re-open the tag division. Allow people to RP as a one-man team with two characters. They could also be occasionally booked in a single match as one of their tag members. However, they won't be allowed to RP in two separate matches.

*Since brand wars seems to have recently spiked in popularity, why not run WZCW in a traditional sense, but try some of the new ideas on a "separate" show. Essentially, it would still be like you have MD and AS, but your second show would now be another company.


Anyway, I hope you know you guys deserve a lot of credit for the quality of work you put out on top of your daily lives. I just hope something above or something someone else suggests can help make WZCW an easier place to keep alive. Much love <3. Cheers!


We'll never just have a results side of thing because that's not fair on people RPing and not getting a match written, it's something we've toyed with in the past but has not been well received.

We're more likely to drop to one show than do brand wars, with the roster being so small it would then need to have exclusive competitors and that makes it a lot harder.

I very much like the idea on rewards for match writers, I think everyone should write a match at some point for them to realise how hard it can be. It's definitely my weakness.

The RP for upperhands we've done sporadically but the feedback with that would be that you'd have say KO v Titus contract signing one round then the next KO v Titus match as in there's two RPs essentially. It suits some people but not others. I've even RPd as a special guest referee before that idea works pretty well.



I'd also encourage more discussion (Fake or real) in the WZCW Discussion thread or make a special one just for a quick promo from the wrestlers apposed to 99.99% of us using WZCW Discord to talk about everything. Using Discord is good, but it also shuts the door off to the outside world who might be watching or interested. They could view the complete lack of discussion as a dead federation apposed to one with very loyal members.

Absolutely and something creative and none creative can do. I think that helps a lot and backs up Tasty's side.



The biggest issue the fed has is that numbers aren't being replenished. Lots of long termers have all left relatively recently, and we are getting very few people in to replace them. Guys like Milenko, Ty and Kermit coming back is what is saving it, but if you look at the people currently involved in the fed, there are probably fewer than 5 that weren't or hadn't been involved 5 years ago. Naturally, we're not getting any younger as a group which means that people have more responsibility and less spare time. This effects creative first as they have to find more time, and everyone just gets more and more jaded. I don't know what the solution is, or even if there is one. Moving to Steel Cage was a last throw of the dice and I hope that it will be fruitful, but the lack of passing trade happened way before the whole exodus - the Discord made the fed look inactive, and being on an otherwise inactive forum was the end. By the time I joined the Discord, there was only me and Dagger I think who hadn't signed up to it. It gives the community strength, but it completely prevents outside people stumbling upon the fed. Unfortunately, with the low traffic here at the best of times, and WZ being even more dead, I don't think the tide could ever turn. So its about advertising elsewhere, on other efeds but I wouldn't even know where to start.

None of this was forseeable or anybody's fault, but it is the perfect storm that has put us in this position.

I'd say the only way the long term of the fed can be protected is to implement some of the above ideas. Secondary characters is a decent idea, but you have to shorten Meltdown and Ascension. They take too long to make, which removes the fluidity of the shows. The time between RP and the show is just too long and it removes the buzz. Again, not pointing fingers, we're just all busy people - I said I'd write this on Saturday afternoon, and it's now Sunday evening.

As for the actual creative side, I've never applied because I don't fancy the idea of writing matches, to be honest. I will potentially reconsider this given the current climate but I need to think about it. As a result, I try not to pass any judgement on those that do put in the effort. My literal only disappointment, having lived in the Middle East and seen the kind of thing that goes on first hand, was that I found the whole Blood Money Lethal Lottery thing a bit tasteless. I know it's parody and it's not a big deal, but there we go. As a suggestion, I think it would be good for people ahead of the 'new year' to expect everyone have a sort of manifesto or big picture aim instead of an RP in the first round for where they want their character to go and what their aim is. The show that follows would try to set those up. Obviously, you can't satisfy everyone but not everyone will want to send PMs detailing plans, and people get jaded if their plans don't align with creative.

I don't know. I hope that helps.

Your first point of expanding is important we've tried a few times and the likes of Carl, Bucky and Sawa have come through from that. There's a few options out there and this is perfect time of the year to do it.

I love the idea of the new years rp, may even work well post KC as the starter.

The last part is something I'm not sure I spoke to you about, but you did express your disappointment in it. In the show itself we actually cut back on how it was presented as it was in poor taste and shows the arrogance the west has.


So this might ruffle some feathers, but i need to get it out. Cuz my biggest complaint is how Lee makes me feel like my opinions and ideas don't matter. I don't participate in this Fed as much as I used to (posting in random rp, offering to guest write etc) because of how abrasive he is. He does it to others, I've witnessed it, and it's basically "well that's Lee, you can just not communicate with him and msg a different person if you need something". I've almost quit the Fed multiple times because of Lee, and no it wasn't cuz I lost, it was cuz I was made to feel insignificant. I used to LOVE this Fed, now I just like my character and a few other ppls characters. I also feel like creative doesn't always fully read ppls rps and that they just skim them, and that it can feel wwe at times(imo callie Clark is like Roman reigns, always relevant even when not involved in a main story)

But my main issue, and it's been an issue for over a year is how unwelcoming Lee makes even offering ideas or suggestions. It's why i stopped trying to be on creative, it's why at times my effort can come off as lacking. I want to love this Fed again, but I feel like the biggest obstacle for that is the way Lee treats ppl. I don't wanna post something like this on a thread where you guys are asking for our honest feelings, complaints, concerns etc, and then have my post used against me going forward, when creative asked for us to vent etc

In the past I've went to yaz and at least 3 other creative members about Lee and all I ever get told is ignore him. Ignoring him just makes me lose my affection for the fed because I wanna contribute more, I wanna help when I can and I wanna feel like I matter to the fed, and for awhile now, Lee has been a huge impediment to that.

Rn I don't feel important to the Fed, and it sucks tbh. I miss craving to be more involved. I just think creative as a whole needs to be more welcoming and not get so defensive when criticisms come there way. Nobody wants to give their opinion and be told, no you're wrong

I don't ask to guest write, apply to creative any of that extra stuff because doing so would make me have to deal with Lee. I feel I could help out alot, get some fresh blood in there but tbh I do this for fun, and Lee makes it stressful.

I enjoy writing, but sometimes Lee and others on creative make me feel like why even bother?

Sorry if this is harsh, but it's my honest feelings.(and Lee is more than welcome to dm me to discuss further if he wishes)

TO be fair I am a dick, I'll message you separately though and hopefully can clear some things up.

[Lee]

So, I'm just going to put it out there, I have been abhorred by the attitude of a creative member and his "I'm right, your wrong and if you don't agree, shut the fuck up" attitude, I literally, do not ask questions anymore or even have faith in y'all, because all I usually get when I talk to other creative members is just come to one of us, but yet, if we want to apply for creative or pitch something we have to go to that certain member. the belittlement on discord is ridiculous, and I had felt like last show was very WWE like with the ending and the pushing of the same characters. I cant even ask questions to endings that make NO SENSE in fear of being put on blast in a main chat on discord or even be told "well, your just upset because you lost." And when I bring it up to another creative member, all I ever get told is "im sorry that they where being a dick to you, but that's how they are and theres nothing we can do about it."

Missed your message, I'm speaking to kweb first then I'll message you.

The thing with "pushing of the same characters" is to do with votes winning matches. It's why I suggested the three others to join on the temporary basis as there's a fresh look at voting for things beyond what we as creative like.

EDIT: To mention the ending that made no sense, I covered that and apologised on Discord. I had asked a few people fed and outside of fed if it worked, they said yes. Clearly it didn't and I'm sorry for that. That's the problem with trying to get a unique ending.

[smarkmouth]

Honestly, the best way to do it might be to just do social media advertising. Create a WZCW Facebook and Instagram or whatever else (if there is not already one) and start aggressively pushing content on a regular basis. But that would mean the fed would need a dedicated social media manager and, as you said, time is a big consideration.

If I can pop in and say whoever does this not take the task lightly. I do social media for a living and it's a hell of investment of time! I'd suggest more than one person handle such an account.

['Ravishing' Ned Flanders]

We have one it's just not being used

[Skairipa]

If I have one criticism from Kingdom Come X compared to previous ones (and please keep in mind I thought it was a very well written show and thoroughly enjoyed it and all those involved should be very proud), it would be that it felt less...epic, I suppose, than previous iterations. Like, the times when halfway through a match where it would get to a crucial moment, and then...

You'd have it in...A couple of these!

That's one example, and it isn't the end of the world, but the show itself felt more...intimate? I don't know if that's fair, and I don't know if that's even a criticism, more just an observation. Other than the match cards, it didn't feel like there was much to separate it from any other WZCW show. That's still a high bar, but I feel we've hit higher. Having said that I am probably thinking back in the days of WZ when things were WAY healthier.

No idea if I explained myself well there but hey, I tried!

I agree about Kingdom Come not feeling as big this year. I think part of it is the fact we got to it quicker than originally planned for various reasons but also there wasn't as much hype as usual. That's something we can work on and get better at in the future.

Regarding spoiler tags in matches, if that's something the majority likes I wouldn't be opposed to it, I wasn't even in the fed when that died I believe, but I was never a fan of it personally. That's a very much a thing that's a personal preference matter and we'll never please everybody one way or the other on.


I've suggested this before, and it's a bad idea but I'll throw it out there again because I'm bored. With the loss of another member, creative or not, the fed numbers are low. With no new people joining on the horizon I think we could have secondary characters. I think with our secondary wrestlers we just make a new profile for them in application thread for creative to approve or not to approve. We don't have to RP with these secondary wrestlers. Their performance will be loosely tied to our main characters RP performance. They can never beat another main character unless the main character no shows. They can't win titles unless the title holder no shows. So if the card looked like this...

Xavier and Freddy G vs RMK and Alec Dinkleberry

Xavier's RP is outstanding
Freddy G is a property of Stormrage, his RP was So So
RMKs RP was awful
Dinkleberry is a property of D Carl's and his RP was also So So.

Xavier's team clearly wins with Xavier getting the best parts of the match.

It also gauges a Main Character to have somewhat squash matches.

Example: RMK's RP is awful. His side character Drunk The Clown is taking on Milenko who had a good RP. Milenko's character can have a dominating match on the card now and give the writer something to work with and the character looks good overpowering his opponent.

Plus it would be easier filling out match cards and writing a short match here and there instead of all epics. It would make the workload a bit heavier but you'd be able to have more tag matches, the odd Battle Royale here and there, silly segments where the side character is humiliated or something you wouldn't dream of doing to damage the rep of your main character.

I think it would be fun to try if everyone got behind it and would give a more comforting illusion that we had a larger fed to the members already playing and perhaps an outsider looking on, they could see it thriving with a larger roster and want to join in.

I don't know how much second characters really add, but it's something to consider for the sake of boosting numbers sure. But then that also requires two RPs vs one, and might lead to people putting less effort into their "main" character which is a concern I have.


First, I want to thank Spidey and all those that still remain on Creative for the work they put in. I know from experience the time commitment that it takes and the creative energy that goes into making something consistently good.

I want to make a few observations from my own perspective.

-----#1. I've noticed that the "extra" discourse outside of role playing has all but vanished. I think the most obvious reasoning is that the fed as a whole has less people in it. However, I've seen inklings in discord that suggests the interest and passion is still there to generate discussion.

On the topic of discord, I've always struggled with keeping up with the structure. I'm going to sound like an old man when I say this, but discussion seemed a lot easier to follow when each thing had its own respective thread on the forums. Sometimes, with conversation being pulled in different directions, it can be hard to get fully vested in a conversation on discord.

I will say that this a general opinion of mine, as I am a member of several discord servers, but I have always felt discouraged about participating in conversation because of the way it is structured. I might be in a vast minority on that one.

-----#2. I do agree with BK on the fanfare of Kingdom Come X. I still think the show was spectacular, but there wasn't the typical build or hype that I remember from past events. That is as much on the community as a whole, as it is on Creative. However, I do feel like someone needs to spearhead those type of things.

-----#3. I think some basic cleaning-up would be nice. One of the first things I did when I got back was head to the General Guide in the backstage section to see who was on Creative. It still has Dave listed as Head of Creative and Dagger as an active creative member.

-----#4. I saw the post on discord about needing help on Creative. Unfortunately, for me, my priorities have shifted. As much as I love the fed, I don't think I could commit to helping. Honestly, I think for the sake of longevity, it might be time to consider how to maximize the work being done and the workload being put on Creative.



Below, I just want to kind of spitball some ideas that could maybe change the workload put on Creative members. Maybe some of the ideas below could possibly attract more people to the other side of the curtain.

Ideas to Shorten Time on Reading RPs

*Have a character-limit on non-PPV shows. (Less time spent reading RPs for Creative)

or

*Have a character-limit for non main-event talent

------------------
Ideas to Shorten Time on Match Writing

*Introduce a "Main Event"-esque show where certain talent is booked on non-PPV rounds. Their matches are written in quick summaries. (This doesn't have to be a demotion. Throw in a beefy main event every once in a while. I personally wouldn't be offended if I was booked on this type of show. In fact, sometimes I would prefer to read match summaries for matches that are not my own.)

and/or

*Write shortened matches except for main events on MD and AS.

and/or

*Consider how to shorten the match-writing process. Shortening or even cutting things like entrances and commentary.

and/or

*Have some RPing for "events" than matches. As in, who gets the upper-hand in a verbal battle and/or contract signing?

------------------
Other Random and Mostly Stupid Ideas

*Turn PPVs into a community collaboration. Have Creative take the four biggest matches, and then divvy out the rest. If no takers, offer an incentive. Offer a mid-card title shot on the following round to all contributors. The worst thing that could happen is a little shake-up.

*Re-open the tag division. Allow people to RP as a one-man team with two characters. They could also be occasionally booked in a single match as one of their tag members. However, they won't be allowed to RP in two separate matches.

*Since brand wars seems to have recently spiked in popularity, why not run WZCW in a traditional sense, but try some of the new ideas on a "separate" show. Essentially, it would still be like you have MD and AS, but your second show would now be another company.




Anyway, I hope you know you guys deserve a lot of credit for the quality of work you put out on top of your daily lives. I just hope something above or something someone else suggests can help make WZCW an easier place to keep alive. Much love <3. Cheers!

Good point regarding discussion, I think most of us just find discord easier but it does make the forum look less active, and I can see how that could be a turn off.

I'm with Lee regarding recapped matches in thinking it's not really fair to the RP'ers.

I kinda like the idea of reopening the tag division, even for 1 man teams. I've seen that be a thing in other feds and it seems to work well for them so I've kinda wondered before if that would work here. But in general I wouldn't be opposed to the tag division coming back, though with small numbers it might lead to too many champions and having only a couple real teams would make it get stale fast.


The biggest issue the fed has is that numbers aren't being replenished. Lots of long termers have all left relatively recently, and we are getting very few people in to replace them. Guys like Milenko, Ty and Kermit coming back is what is saving it, but if you look at the people currently involved in the fed, there are probably fewer than 5 that weren't or hadn't been involved 5 years ago. Naturally, we're not getting any younger as a group which means that people have more responsibility and less spare time. This effects creative first as they have to find more time, and everyone just gets more and more jaded. I don't know what the solution is, or even if there is one. Moving to Steel Cage was a last throw of the dice and I hope that it will be fruitful, but the lack of passing trade happened way before the whole exodus - the Discord made the fed look inactive, and being on an otherwise inactive forum was the end. By the time I joined the Discord, there was only me and Dagger I think who hadn't signed up to it. It gives the community strength, but it completely prevents outside people stumbling upon the fed. Unfortunately, with the low traffic here at the best of times, and WZ being even more dead, I don't think the tide could ever turn. So its about advertising elsewhere, on other efeds but I wouldn't even know where to start.

None of this was forseeable or anybody's fault, but it is the perfect storm that has put us in this position.

I'd say the only way the long term of the fed can be protected is to implement some of the above ideas. Secondary characters is a decent idea, but you have to shorten Meltdown and Ascension. They take too long to make, which removes the fluidity of the shows. The time between RP and the show is just too long and it removes the buzz. Again, not pointing fingers, we're just all busy people - I said I'd write this on Saturday afternoon, and it's now Sunday evening.

As for the actual creative side, I've never applied because I don't fancy the idea of writing matches, to be honest. I will potentially reconsider this given the current climate but I need to think about it. As a result, I try not to pass any judgement on those that do put in the effort. My literal only disappointment, having lived in the Middle East and seen the kind of thing that goes on first hand, was that I found the whole Blood Money Lethal Lottery thing a bit tasteless. I know it's parody and it's not a big deal, but there we go. As a suggestion, I think it would be good for people ahead of the 'new year' to expect everyone have a sort of manifesto or big picture aim instead of an RP in the first round for where they want their character to go and what their aim is. The show that follows would try to set those up. Obviously, you can't satisfy everyone but not everyone will want to send PMs detailing plans, and people get jaded if their plans don't align with creative.

I don't know. I hope that helps.

Shortening the weekly shows is an option, but I don't know if they are really that long as much as we all run into times where we're busy or have a personal problem pop up. But it's not a bad idea.


imo callie Clark is like Roman reigns, always relevant even when not involved in a main story



In the past I've went to yaz and at least 3 other creative members about Lee and all I ever get told is ignore him. Ignoring him just makes me lose my affection for the fed because I wanna contribute more, I wanna help when I can and I wanna feel like I matter to the fed, and for awhile now, Lee has been a huge impediment to that.

Rn I don't feel important to the Fed, and it sucks tbh. I miss craving to be more involved. I just think creative as a whole needs to be more welcoming and not get so defensive when criticisms come there way. Nobody wants to give their opinion and be told, no you're wrong

Regarding that first part I just wanted to say I'm not the type to push things for myself, sometimes things just happen. I mean take the feud with Adams for example, a randomizer led to that becoming a thing. I understand your thinking that certain characters always have something going on though, and it is a common problem we run into that we don't have feuds for some people and it leads to things like a battle royal. One reason I'd say it's important to toss out feud ideas, it never hurts to put an idea in creative's head imo. But overall we probably need to do better with the lower card side of things I agree.

[Jeff Deliverer of Mail]

Both of you said two RPs would have to be written. SOBs, read the idea again lol. I said the secondary character's success would be based on the main characters RP so two RPs would not have to be written.

[Lee]

Both of you said two RPs would have to be written. SOBs, read the idea again lol. I said the secondary character's success would be based on the main characters RP so two RPs would not have to be written.

That idea just won't work.

[HOMOFLEXUAL DYNAMITE]

If I have one criticism from Kingdom Come X compared to previous ones (and please keep in mind I thought it was a very well written show and thoroughly enjoyed it and all those involved should be very proud), it would be that it felt less...epic, I suppose, than previous iterations. Like, the times when halfway through a match where it would get to a crucial moment, and then...

You'd have it in...A couple of these!

That's one example, and it isn't the end of the world, but the show itself felt more...intimate? I don't know if that's fair, and I don't know if that's even a criticism, more just an observation. Other than the match cards, it didn't feel like there was much to separate it from any other WZCW show. That's still a high bar, but I feel we've hit higher. Having said that I am probably thinking back in the days of WZ when things were WAY healthier.

No idea if I explained myself well there but hey, I tried!

I agree that this adds to matches. I'll try to include that in PPV matches from now on. Even if it's not spoilers I'll try to make it special.


I've suggested this before, and it's a bad idea but I'll throw it out there again because I'm bored. With the loss of another member, creative or not, the fed numbers are low. With no new people joining on the horizon I think we could have secondary characters. I think with our secondary wrestlers we just make a new profile for them in application thread for creative to approve or not to approve. We don't have to RP with these secondary wrestlers. Their performance will be loosely tied to our main characters RP performance. They can never beat another main character unless the main character no shows. They can't win titles unless the title holder no shows. So if the card looked like this...

Xavier and Freddy G vs RMK and Alec Dinkleberry

Xavier's RP is outstanding
Freddy G is a property of Stormrage, his RP was So So
RMKs RP was awful
Dinkleberry is a property of D Carl's and his RP was also So So.

Xavier's team clearly wins with Xavier getting the best parts of the match.

It also gauges a Main Character to have somewhat squash matches.

Example: RMK's RP is awful. His side character Drunk The Clown is taking on Milenko who had a good RP. Milenko's character can have a dominating match on the card now and give the writer something to work with and the character looks good overpowering his opponent.

Plus it would be easier filling out match cards and writing a short match here and there instead of all epics. It would make the workload a bit heavier but you'd be able to have more tag matches, the odd Battle Royale here and there, silly segments where the side character is humiliated or something you wouldn't dream of doing to damage the rep of your main character.

I think it would be fun to try if everyone got behind it and would give a more comforting illusion that we had a larger fed to the members already playing and perhaps an outsider looking on, they could see it thriving with a larger roster and want to join in.

I want the tag titles back as well, but as others have said more discussion probably needs to be had to get it 100% right.


First, I want to thank Spidey and all those that still remain on Creative for the work they put in. I know from experience the time commitment that it takes and the creative energy that goes into making something consistently good.

I want to make a few observations from my own perspective.

-----#1. I've noticed that the "extra" discourse outside of role playing has all but vanished. I think the most obvious reasoning is that the fed as a whole has less people in it. However, I've seen inklings in discord that suggests the interest and passion is still there to generate discussion.

On the topic of discord, I've always struggled with keeping up with the structure. I'm going to sound like an old man when I say this, but discussion seemed a lot easier to follow when each thing had its own respective thread on the forums. Sometimes, with conversation being pulled in different directions, it can be hard to get fully vested in a conversation on discord.

I will say that this a general opinion of mine, as I am a member of several discord servers, but I have always felt discouraged about participating in conversation because of the way it is structured. I might be in a vast minority on that one.

-----#2. I do agree with BK on the fanfare of Kingdom Come X. I still think the show was spectacular, but there wasn't the typical build or hype that I remember from past events. That is as much on the community as a whole, as it is on Creative. However, I do feel like someone needs to spearhead those type of things.

-----#3. I think some basic cleaning-up would be nice. One of the first things I did when I got back was head to the General Guide in the backstage section to see who was on Creative. It still has Dave listed as Head of Creative and Dagger as an active creative member.

-----#4. I saw the post on discord about needing help on Creative. Unfortunately, for me, my priorities have shifted. As much as I love the fed, I don't think I could commit to helping. Honestly, I think for the sake of longevity, it might be time to consider how to maximize the work being done and the workload being put on Creative.



Below, I just want to kind of spitball some ideas that could maybe change the workload put on Creative members. Maybe some of the ideas below could possibly attract more people to the other side of the curtain.

Ideas to Shorten Time on Reading RPs

*Have a character-limit on non-PPV shows. (Less time spent reading RPs for Creative)

or

*Have a character-limit for non main-event talent

------------------
Ideas to Shorten Time on Match Writing

*Introduce a "Main Event"-esque show where certain talent is booked on non-PPV rounds. Their matches are written in quick summaries. (This doesn't have to be a demotion. Throw in a beefy main event every once in a while. I personally wouldn't be offended if I was booked on this type of show. In fact, sometimes I would prefer to read match summaries for matches that are not my own.)

and/or

*Write shortened matches except for main events on MD and AS.

and/or

*Consider how to shorten the match-writing process. Shortening or even cutting things like entrances and commentary.

and/or

*Have some RPing for "events" than matches. As in, who gets the upper-hand in a verbal battle and/or contract signing?

------------------
Other Random and Mostly Stupid Ideas

*Turn PPVs into a community collaboration. Have Creative take the four biggest matches, and then divvy out the rest. If no takers, offer an incentive. Offer a mid-card title shot on the following round to all contributors. The worst thing that could happen is a little shake-up.

*Re-open the tag division. Allow people to RP as a one-man team with two characters. They could also be occasionally booked in a single match as one of their tag members. However, they won't be allowed to RP in two separate matches.

*Since brand wars seems to have recently spiked in popularity, why not run WZCW in a traditional sense, but try some of the new ideas on a "separate" show. Essentially, it would still be like you have MD and AS, but your second show would now be another company.




Anyway, I hope you know you guys deserve a lot of credit for the quality of work you put out on top of your daily lives. I just hope something above or something someone else suggests can help make WZCW an easier place to keep alive. Much love <3. Cheers!

Agree wholeheartedly we need more discussion on the shows on SCF or at least the actual discord. Shows get posted and maybe one or two non-creative members comment on it and its forgotten. Part of it is us but we still need member participation.


The biggest issue the fed has is that numbers aren't being replenished. Lots of long termers have all left relatively recently, and we are getting very few people in to replace them. Guys like Milenko, Ty and Kermit coming back is what is saving it, but if you look at the people currently involved in the fed, there are probably fewer than 5 that weren't or hadn't been involved 5 years ago. Naturally, we're not getting any younger as a group which means that people have more responsibility and less spare time. This effects creative first as they have to find more time, and everyone just gets more and more jaded. I don't know what the solution is, or even if there is one. Moving to Steel Cage was a last throw of the dice and I hope that it will be fruitful, but the lack of passing trade happened way before the whole exodus - the Discord made the fed look inactive, and being on an otherwise inactive forum was the end. By the time I joined the Discord, there was only me and Dagger I think who hadn't signed up to it. It gives the community strength, but it completely prevents outside people stumbling upon the fed. Unfortunately, with the low traffic here at the best of times, and WZ being even more dead, I don't think the tide could ever turn. So its about advertising elsewhere, on other efeds but I wouldn't even know where to start.

None of this was forseeable or anybody's fault, but it is the perfect storm that has put us in this position.

I'd say the only way the long term of the fed can be protected is to implement some of the above ideas. Secondary characters is a decent idea, but you have to shorten Meltdown and Ascension. They take too long to make, which removes the fluidity of the shows. The time between RP and the show is just too long and it removes the buzz. Again, not pointing fingers, we're just all busy people - I said I'd write this on Saturday afternoon, and it's now Sunday evening.

As for the actual creative side, I've never applied because I don't fancy the idea of writing matches, to be honest. I will potentially reconsider this given the current climate but I need to think about it. As a result, I try not to pass any judgement on those that do put in the effort. My literal only disappointment, having lived in the Middle East and seen the kind of thing that goes on first hand, was that I found the whole Blood Money Lethal Lottery thing a bit tasteless. I know it's parody and it's not a big deal, but there we go. As a suggestion, I think it would be good for people ahead of the 'new year' to expect everyone have a sort of manifesto or big picture aim instead of an RP in the first round for where they want their character to go and what their aim is. The show that follows would try to set those up. Obviously, you can't satisfy everyone but not everyone will want to send PMs detailing plans, and people get jaded if their plans don't align with creative.

I don't know. I hope that helps.

I agree with a lot of these points, don't have much to add but I thank you for the input.


So, I'm just going to put it out there, I have been abhorred by the attitude of a creative member and his "I'm right, your wrong and if you don't agree, shut the fuck up" attitude, I literally, do not ask questions anymore or even have faith in y'all, because all I usually get when I talk to other creative members is just come to one of us, but yet, if we want to apply for creative or pitch something we have to go to that certain member. the belittlement on discord is ridiculous, and I had felt like last show was very WWE like with the ending and the pushing of the same characters. I cant even ask questions to endings that make NO SENSE in fear of being put on blast in a main chat on discord or even be told "well, your just upset because you lost." And when I bring it up to another creative member, all I ever get told is "im sorry that they where being a dick to you, but that's how they are and theres nothing we can do about it."

As someone who has been on the accusing side of fed politics as well as been accused of it, I can tell you now more than ever pushes are solely based on winning matches and votes.

[Jeff Deliverer of Mail]

As one of the folks who has seen both sides of the curtain I think it would help if each creative member gave outside staff a short summary of what they like to read in RPs and what they don't necessarily like. I think it would help gauge the writing, especially for somebody new(ish) would might not know what each creative member likes. Some people like comedy, some people don't like comedy, some people don't like too much comedy but splashes of it to keep the story charming is fine. I often wonder (when I'm in another bad losing streak all the time) if I'm getting anyone's attention or they just despise the direction I'm taking with the storyline. I usually assume they hate it and dump stuff as soon as it started, my writing can go way out in left field often and it'd be nice to get that feedback "Hey, liked your RP...might want to tone down the laser equipped apes, nobody liked that."