Donald Trump Impeachment

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Originally Posted by Jack-Hammer

Sure it's historic but it's also something of a waste of time, energy and money because the Democrats don't have the votes to actually get him out of office

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Doing the right thing is never a waste of time, energy or money. Do not allow Republican propaganda to trick you into believing there is ever anything wrong with doing the right thing, even if it is not for the most noble of reasons.

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due to the Republicans having a small majority in the Senate. You need a majority vote in both the House and Senate in order to actually remove the POTUS from power

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You actually need a 2/3rds majority for removal in Senate.

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and that's not gonna happen here because the country is split down party lines like no other time in my lifetime that I can recall.

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That's not the problem.

The problem is there is one party who is flatly refusing to put the country and Constitution ahead of their party (and the political power that comes with it), because they are afraid to lose their elected seats. The problem isn't partisanship, it is cowardice.

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Do I think he deserves to be removed from power? Absolutely as it's been shown that Trump attempted to leverage Ukraine to launch an investigation into Joe Biden by not delivering nearly $400 million in aid to the country unless they launched said investigation.

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Mostly correct...Trump never cared about an actual investigation, he just wanted a public announcement of an investigation. Small, but important, difference.

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The Republicans are trying to say that nothing criminal happened here

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And they are lying.

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because Ukraine didn't go through with the investigation

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Not arguing with you, just Republicans, but this doesn't matter. It was the attempt which was illegal.

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they're saying there was no "Quid Pro Quo" because the investigation didn't happen and that there's nothing criminal in Trump's attempt

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They're lying.

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at least that's the stance of those who'll even acknowledge the attempt even took place because there are some who claim they don't despite all the testimony, despite transcripts of the phone calls, etc..

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That's been one of my "favorite" parts. People are literally arguing with reality.

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The GOP has bent over backwards to ignore the law and basic human decency when it comes to the defense of Donald Trump throughout his term

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Yup.

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whether it's been taking the side of dictators like Vladimir Putin & Kim Jong-Un over the word of American intelligence agencies, lashing out with childish insults at anyone who doesn't agree with him, mocking the physically disabled, mocking the appearance of women he doesn't find attractive, supporting and/or initiating policies based on racial, religious or sexual prejudice and it just goes on and on.

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Yup.

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The fact that so many people defend this man is beyond astounding. I grew up in a pretty conservative area, Eastern Kentucky is a haven for right wing politics and also happens to be one of the geographically poorest areas in the entire country. It's also home to a number of the poorest counties of any state in all the country and those are places that are rife with conservative politics. I've heard people venerate Donald Trump almost as though he's some kind of saint, some saying he's the best POTUS of their lifetime, etc. and I don't think it has so much to do with Trump as it's just that they so severely dislike liberal politics. Around where I grew up, if you're Pro Choice, support stricter gun laws, think efforts in energy production should be moved from fossil fuels or any or all of the above, then you're the next worse thing to Satan himself. For MANY of them, they cling to this age old propaganda that the United States is THE chosen land, that the United States is the end all and be all of creation; they don't like to acknowledge the truth in that you can be proud of your country while still not whitewashing the fact that there are NUMEROUS atrocities that's part of our history. They don't want to admit that American industry was once, and continues to be in some cases, built on the exploitation of minorities, that our ancestors to one degree or another forcibly took this land from Native tribes and the disproportionate distribution of wealth and services that's been SOP almost from the very beginning. During election time, all a GOP candidate has to do is start thumping the Bible, life begins at conception, every other country should essentially bow down to the USA, say that every Democratic candidate is out to take their guns like Beto O'Rourke would do if he cound, that they're a friend of coal and marriage should be between a man & woman only and you'll have droves of Bubbas and Billy Bobs practically flying out of the hollows and small towns to come and vote for you. Even if they don't know the issues at all, which is the case when it comes to a lot of them, they'll vote red because they're just so opposed to blue because that's what they've been taught whether it be by their parents or their pastors.

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All 100% correct, except now you also have to include right wing media in the brainwashing.

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Originally Posted by Jack-Hammer

The fact that so many people defend this man is beyond astounding. I grew up in a pretty conservative area, Eastern Kentucky is a haven for right wing politics and also happens to be one of the geographically poorest areas in the entire country. It's also home to a number of the poorest counties of any state in all the country and those are places that are rife with conservative politics. I've heard people venerate Donald Trump almost as though he's some kind of saint, some saying he's the best POTUS of their lifetime, etc. and I don't think it has so much to do with Trump as it's just that they so severely dislike liberal politics. Around where I grew up, if you're Pro Choice, support stricter gun laws, think efforts in energy production should be moved from fossil fuels or any or all of the above, then you're the next worse thing to Satan himself. For MANY of them, they cling to this age old propaganda that the United States is THE chosen land, that the United States is the end all and be all of creation; they don't like to acknowledge the truth in that you can be proud of your country while still not whitewashing the fact that there are NUMEROUS atrocities that's part of our history. They don't want to admit that American industry was once, and continues to be in some cases, built on the exploitation of minorities, that our ancestors to one degree or another forcibly took this land from Native tribes and the disproportionate distribution of wealth and services that's been SOP almost from the very beginning. During election time, all a GOP candidate has to do is start thumping the Bible, life begins at conception, every other country should essentially bow down to the USA, say that every Democratic candidate is out to take their guns like Beto O'Rourke would do if he cound, that they're a friend of coal and marriage should be between a man & woman only and you'll have droves of Bubbas and Billy Bobs practically flying out of the hollows and small towns to come and vote for you. Even if they don't know the issues at all, which is the case when it comes to a lot of them, they'll vote red because they're just so opposed to blue because that's what they've been taught whether it be by their parents or their pastors.

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This is a great explanation of what's wrong with the republican party. Very well said.

I warned myself I wasn't going to get into politics here again, but here we go.

The factor that many people seem to be neglecting is the levity of Joe Biden's actions. As the vice-president of the United States, he had vested interests in Ukraine. He encouraged President Obama to take lethal action during the 2014 crisis, something that very well could have escalated to war. Thankfully, Obama refused, and Biden was instead assigned a more diplomatic role with Ukraine.

We know now why Biden took particular interest in the Ukraine and sought for Moscow to "pay in blood and money" - his son was a important member of a natural gas company board. A militaristic response with Russia is one the United States would undoubtedly win at this point, but would obviously not be without colossal loss of life on both sides. This is standard neoliberal/neoconservative immorality; we see this opaquely in the Trump administration in how they sabre-rattle with Iran, whilst turning a blind eye to the blatantly more abhorrent Saudi Arabia and their involvement in Yemen. They don't give a fuck about loss of life and devastation to foreign nations, they just want economic gains above all else.

But this is where things get interesting. It was around 2015 that the prosecutor general of Ukraine was caught and subsequently fired for accepting bribes from Mykola Zlochevsky, the owner of the company Hunter Biden was a board member of. Joe Biden was still heavily involved in the politics of Ukraine at the time. This is when a Viktor Shokin was ushered in as the new prosecutor general. And things get plain bizarre.

Supposedly, a case against Mykola Zlochevsky and his company, investigating corruption was closed during 2014-2015. This was around the time the previous prosecutor general of Ukraine WAS ACCEPTING BRIBES FROM ZLOCHEVSKY. So the corruption investigation was closed around the time a prosecutor general was fired for accepting bribes from the company? That makes less than no sense, and therefore does not dismiss the claims made by Giuliani towards the Bidens. Let's also not forget it is a well-established fact that Biden withheld 1 billion dollars of funding to Ukraine unless Victor Shokin was fired, and in 2015 (tinfoil at the ready), Shokin was the target of an attempted assassination, with the identity or agenda of the assassin never being discovered, as they were never captured. Could Shokin have been corrupt in his own right? It's very possible. But part and parcel of power politics is using an enemies weakness against them. If they find a wound, they're going to cut at it more. If you're an ally, they'll cover the wound. This goes back to what I was saying about Iran and Saudi Arabia.

It's safe to say that a very credible case against Biden could be made, and to ignore that just to use Trump's investigation into the affairs of the Bidens as a means to impeach him is clearly using this ordeal to grind an axe against a politician you don't like.

The fact the media is giving Biden a free pass in all of this, whilst immediately assuming the foulest of intentions from Trump (I don't deny Trump definitely had something to gain politically from doing this, but I also believe the Bidens undoubtedly should have been investigated) is endemic that double standards most definitely exist in the contemporary, mainstream left today as well as the right. You're free to keep hating Trump (I strongly dislike him also), but if you can somehow act as if Biden is acquitted of any wrong-doing, you're a partisan mired in bias. And before you throw some buzzwords at me decrying me a "reactionary" or "right-wing apologist", I literally think Nigel Farage is a CIA asset promoting Brexit for the gain of American free trade. That's a much more far-fetched claim than anything I'm making here.

This is all motivated from political opportunism, whether it be the Democrats or the Republicans. Buying into this nonsense and thinking any side is acting of benevolence for the citizenry is foolish at best. This is all motivated by power politics; the Democrats attempting to regain control of the country whilst the Republicans do their best to hold onto it. If you're going to apply cynicism, at least apply it universally instead toward the party you personally dislike. This is theatre for two factions of hyper-capitalists who don't give a fuck about the people. Biden and Trump are both scumfucks, stop pretending only the latter is the issue here.

"But Trump claimed Jesus was the reason for the season!"

And they wonder why people are leaving the church.

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Originally Posted by Fallout

I warned myself I wasn't going to get into politics here again, but here we go.

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My response is intended to be respectful, but there are just some things in your post which do not make much sense.

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The factor that many people seem to be neglecting is the levity of Joe Biden's actions. As the vice-president of the United States, he had vested interests in Ukraine. He encouraged President Obama to take lethal action during the 2014 crisis, something that very well could have escalated to war. Thankfully, Obama refused, and Biden was instead assigned a more diplomatic role with Ukraine.

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So the "levity" of Biden's actions was that he supported an ally against Russia, who was illegally annexing part of our ally's territory?

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We know now why Biden took particular interest in the Ukraine and sought for Moscow to "pay in blood and money" - his son was a important member of a natural gas company board.

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Is that why all the Republicans supported his actions? Is that why most of Europe supported his actions?

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Let's also not forget it is a well-established fact that Biden withheld 1 billion dollars of funding to Ukraine unless Victor Shokin was fired

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The position which was taken by Republicans and most of Europe.

Your post here assumes Biden was acting contrary to the position of most of the Western world. He wasn't. Biden's position was aligned with everyone else's. That is ALSO a well-established fact.

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, and in 2015 (tinfoil at the ready), Shokin was the target of an attempted assassination, with the identity or agenda of the assassin never being discovered, as they were never captured. Could Shokin have been corrupt in his own right? It's very possible.

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"Very possible"?

So it's a "well-established" fact that Biden was aligned with the position of most of the Western world, but it is only "very possible" Shokin was corrupt? Why do you think most of the Western world was calling for his removal?

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It's safe to say that a very credible case against Biden could be made, and to ignore that just to use Trump's investigation into the affairs of the Bidens as a means to impeach him is clearly using this ordeal to grind an axe against a politician you don't like.

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No, that's asinine. I'm sorry, but your position here is logically invalid.

Trump claims he wanted Ukraine to investigate the Bidens, and withheld aid from Ukraine, because Ukraine is known for corruption. But that means the American President was wanting a foreign government known for corruption to investigate an American citizen based on a conspiracy theory his own State Department said had no validity.

Your position is logically invalid. Trump was pressuring Ukraine for personal reasons. If Trump TRULY was concerned with corruption, how come every other country, many of which with higher corruption scores, got all their money? Why did Trump ask about "the server", which is a ridiculous conspiracy theory in its own right? How come Trump wanted Ukraine to investigate, rather than the FBI? How come Trump only cared about a PUBLIC statement, not a real investigation?

No, Trump is being impeached because he was acting corruptly. The Hunter Biden thing ONLY came up after Joe Biden announced his candidacy. The Hunter Biden thing had already been investigated. Trump's own State Department have all said it is a baseless conspiracy theory.

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The fact the media is giving Biden a free pass in all of this

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A free pass for what? What did Joe Biden do, besides his job and take a position most of the Western world held? What is Joe Biden getting a pass on? Do you even know?

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whilst immediately assuming the foulest of intentions from Trump

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It's not an assumption. We've read the call summary. We've heard the testimony. We're able to independently consider the facts. It's not an assumption when every piece of evidence makes it clear Trump was acting corruptly.

And here's something that is likely to blow your mind. This whole Ukraine thing? This is all part of the Russian collusion. I'd be happy to explain if you'd like. For starters, go see what Ukraine said about the Manafort investigation in early 2018...right before the Trump admin provided them with weapons. Just see what you find.

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(I don't deny Trump definitely had something to gain politically from doing this, but I also believe the Bidens undoubtedly should have been investigated)

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Why should "the Bidens" be investigated? Hunter Biden was already investigated (twice, I believe) and cleared. Joe Biden...well, what would you investigate?

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You're free to keep hating Trump (I strongly dislike him also), but if you can somehow act as if Biden is acquitted of any wrong-doing, you're a partisan mired in bias.

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WHY? You keep making these claims. What evidence do you have that anything was illegal or corrupt? Aside from a bunch of innuendo from a corrupt President and his equally corrupt cronies, what hard evidence do you have which negates the testimony of Trump's own State Department?

Don't fall for right wing media lies. Just listen to the people who were doing this every day.

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And before you throw some buzzwords at me decrying me a "reactionary" or "right-wing apologist"

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I'm doing nothing of the sort, but I think you are displaying some unfortunate ignorance on the topic. You think the Bidens should be investigated, but you have no idea for what. You are ignoring Trump's own State Department (including those Republicans requested) testifying that what you are saying is a baseless, factless conspiracy theory. You're providing illogical arguments in claiming the American President wanted a corrupt foreign government to investigate an American over a baseless, factless conspiracy theory. You're ignoring the fact Rudy Giuliani has LITERALLY admitted they fired Marie Yovanovitch, a woman known as an anti-corruption champion, because she was getting in the way. You are ignoring Gordon Sondland saying, point blank, that there was 100% a quid pro quo required by Trump for a White House call and White House visit. You are ignoring that Ukraine knew Trump was withholding financial aid the very day Trump spoke with Zelensky and that the aid was only released after Congress publicly announced an investigation.

I'm not calling you a reactionary or right-wing apologist, but I am saying there are many many facts you are not considering while you also are allowing vague innuendo cause you to make a claim which is a baseless conspiracy theory and that it should be investigated.

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This is all motivated from political opportunism

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Perhaps. But impeachment is only happening because Trump acted corruptly (again).

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Buying into this nonsense and thinking any side is acting of benevolence for the citizenry is foolish at best.

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Perhaps, but only one side is doing the right thing. Regardless of the Democrats reasons, they are at least doing what they are supposed to be doing.

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This is all motivated by power politics; the Democrats attempting to regain control of the country whilst the Republicans do their best to hold onto it.

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Republicans are selling out their country, blatantly and knowingly repeatedly Russian disinformation, to hold power. That is blatantly un-American.

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If you're going to apply cynicism, at least apply it universally instead toward the party you personally dislike. This is theatre for two factions of hyper-capitalists who don't give a fuck about the people. Biden and Trump are both scumfucks, stop pretending only the latter is the issue here.

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Both side-ism isn't always applicable. It's not applicable here. The facts are the facts. And the facts say Biden held the same position as VP as most of the Western world (including Republicans). The facts say Trump's State Department has testified before Congress you are pushing a baseless conspiracy theory. And the facts say Trump blatantly acted corruptly, by leveraging US policy and his well-known affinity (and work) with Russia to bribe and extort a foreign country to falsely announce a sham investigation into Trump's political rival.

Those are the facts. Again, I'm not trying to be rude or disrespectful to you, but there really isn't a "both sides" argument to be made on this one. Trump colluded with Russia, Trump has repeatedly strong-armed Ukraine (who is at war with Russia) and got caught this time trying to bribe and extort them for his own personal gain.