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The following match is scheduled for one fall. The match is held in San Antonio, TX and is a Round of 32 matchup. All seeds represent overall tournament seeding.
https://steelcageforums.com/tourney/...risjericho.jpg https://steelcageforums.com/tourney/pics/mickfoley.jpg #16 Chris Jericho vs. #17 Mick Foley
The discussion period will last for two days, followed by two days for voting. You may vote for whomever you feel deserves to win this match. Please post your reasons below if you wish.
I'm favoring Mick Foley here, honestly. In their prime, Foley was losing to the faces of the company while Y2J was getting his ass handed to him by midcard and main eventer alike. He was a charisma machine, not a winning machine. I would go as far as to say both were stepping stones to the major stars, and Jericho just happened to be stepped on more than Mick. That on top of Foley not tapping to anybody in his heyday really creates a problem for The Walls of Jericho. I think Mick Foley could push through and give the fans a feel good moment for the first round.
I will abstain from voting until the last day in case somebody comes along with a better argument, but how I see it currently, this is Jericho's to lose.
I have to disagree with you. The fact is, for all of Foley's accomplishments, his run as a main-eventer was comparatively short. He languished in the midcard in WCW, went to the WWF and worked the midcard for years there as well. For goodness sake, his most memorable moments include a sock he kept in his crotch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spidercanrana
Jericho, on the other hand, has not only been a long-time main-eventer but also has done while constantly reinventing himself. He's done it with fantastic matches, great promos and he's managed to do it while also putting over newer talent. I have to give Jericho the nod here.
Both guys were consistently near the top, versatile in their performances, able to rally fans behind them with natural charisma, but I think Jericho has the edge here. Jericho accomplished more than Foley did during his career, and whilst being around for longer, he managed to remain consistent, and sparked a career renaissance Foley never accomplished upon his return at the end of 2007 and his heel turn the year after. Jericho probably has the more embarrassing losses (Fandango, anyone?), but I also think his career hit higher highs than Foley did.
Ultimately, I think KB's comments on Mikey Stormrage are pretty apt to describe Foley: He works better as a chaser than a champion. The actual championship win is a legendary moment, but the reign itself was very short. Prime Jericho has more tools at his disposal to beat Prime Foley.
Tough match. I'd say that, at his peak, that Mankind was more popular than Jericho. You could argue that was a result of Foley working with top notch talent like Kane, Undertaker, Austin, Rock, and Trips at the time, and while that certainly helped, Mankind was involved in the highest rated segment in RAW history. 600,000 households changed over from Nitro to RAW to watch him win the world title. Foley was undeniably popular. It's been touched on, but Mankind was a sympathetic character. But he really couldn't be pushed as an underdog, because he was 6'2 and 300 pounds. So the character had to be dicked over, undermined, cheated, and be made to look stupid to get that pity from the fans. But it worked because Foley was just so good at playing that character. Fans just wanted to see that character succeed. He was dynamic, charismatic, and entertaining. But so was Jericho.
Jericho, unlike Foley, looked like a champion. He acted like a champion. He was built like a champion. It's no wonder why WWE has tasked him so many times at carrying either the mid card or world titles for short periods of time. That's something Foley wouldn't have been able to do. Jericho might have been a transitional champion most of the time, but Foley, either as Mankind or Cactus, was a novelty act most of the time. Mick was often there to boost the segments of the show. Jericho could not only do that, but was often there to boost the credibility of the titles too. I think because of that, it makes Jericho the better wrestler.
Vote Jericho.
Didn't Jericho beat Foley multiple times while Foley never beat Jericho? I thought that was a joke in Foley's hall of fame speech but I could have my information wrong. Anyway Jericho has my vote currently. Longer run at the top and one could argue he's had multple primes over the years.
Foley and Jericho have kind of a similar story when it comes to their wrestling career: absolute fan favorites regardless of if they're heels or faces, portrayed multiple types of characters successfully, and had brushes with superstardom while never quite making it to the pinnacle of the wrestling world.
The reason I give Foley the nod over Jericho here is because Foley struck one of the biggest blows in the Monday Night Wars when his spoiled championship victory stole millions of viewers away from Nitro. People wanted to see Foley win the championship so badly that they tuned out of a live television show to watch something they already knew was going to happen. Jericho's defection from WCW to WWE was certainly one of WWE's biggest steals in the Monday Night Wars, but it was Mick Foley that helped turn the tables in that battle.
I can't begrudge anyone voting Jericho over Foley. Jericho certainly had a more innovative style of wrestling, he has the edge on longevity and titles, and he's also had a much more lucrative career outside of wrestling (remember when he hosted that NBC gameshow where they dropped stuff off the side of a building?). But when it comes to drawing power, impact on the sport, and overall prestige, I have to give Foley a slight edge.
I get your argument, and it's perfectly valid, but Foley struck me as more of a person being in the right place at the right time. Half, if not, most of the success of that segment was because it was juxtaposed with one of the biggest wrestling fuck-ups ever recorded. People switched from Nitro to Raw when Schiavone spoiled the match, then came back to witness the poke. It was a one-two punch to WCW, with the second punch being done by WCW themselves. Foley winning was a great moment regardless, and he did deliver a hell of a promo afterwards, but I think given the circumstances, another WCW alumni (let's say, Goldust) could have achieved something similar with the right handling and reputation. Jericho achieved his success more organically, things didn't quite fall into his lap that way. Not to take away from Foley's achievements or reputation, as this is a close match, nor am I arguing against the reality of what happened, but there's more to it than just the WWF side of the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by JGlass
I get what you're saying, but I don't think the fame of Foley's win/WCW spoiling it is dependent on the fame of The Poke. In fact, I didn't even know that was the same night until you just told me now, and I know a lot of shit about wrestling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallout
I don't like this argument for a few reasons.Quote:
Foley winning was a great moment regardless, and he did deliver a hell of a promo afterwards, but I think given the circumstances, another WCW alumni (let's say, Goldust) could have achieved something similar with the right handling and reputation. Jericho achieved his success more organically, things didn't quite fall into his lap that way. Not to take away from Foley's achievements or reputation, as this is a close match, nor am I arguing against the reality of what happened, but there's more to it than just the WWF side of the story.
For one thing, the "if they had the right handling..." is the most tired argument there is. If Jeff Hardy was handled right, he could be bigger than Cena right now. Just as valid an argument as Goldust being able to match Foley's level with the right handling.
For another thing... what the fuck do you mean more organically? I think a large part of Foley's success is attributed to how organically he got to the places he got to. This is a man that constantly sacrificed his body to appease the fans! He didn't need the help of the promotion to get over (which Jericho occasionally did need in the WWE, I might add), he got himself over, mostly by doing crazy shit.
I will concede that Jericho certainly had a better career outside of WWE than Foley, there's no denying that. Maybe I'm a romantic, but I think Foley's shooting star of a career has had a bigger impact on the world of professional wrestling than Jericho's had. Foley was a weirdly successful character at a pivotal time in wrestling, and while there's no doubt Jericho has had a longer career than Foley with many more titles, it was Foley's role in history that made professional wrestling is what it is today, and while Mick Foley was shaping that world, Jericho was living in it.
Think you misunderstood, I'm not saying the legacy is dependant on the poke, but the initial success of it was in large part because of the juxtaposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by JGlass
Again, think you're missing my point. I'm not trying to say Goldust is better than Foley because he's obviously not, nor am I strictly saying he could have been. My point is, a lot of the WCW audience changed the channel on the basis that they knew Mick Foley, as they would have known Dustin Rhodes. Admittedly, this is a gut feeling more than something objectively true, because no-one could analyse everyone's reasons as to why they changed the channel's mindset, especially not me. But I don't think a WWE homegrown star would have gotten such a reception, and I think Goldust, if in a similar position to Foley, would have achieved the same effect because of his past in WCW. This isn't an unrealistic "What if Flair was in 1999 WWF" argument, which is why I specifically chose Goldust, since he was in the company at the time.Quote:
I don't like this argument for a few reasons.
For one thing, the "if they had the right handling..." is the most tired argument there is. If Jeff Hardy was handled right, he could be bigger than Cena right now. Just as valid an argument as Goldust being able to match Foley's level with the right handling.
Oh yeah, in general, I do agree with you completely on Foley, I'm just talking about January 4th here, as everyone's been talking about it as his biggest moment (which it probably is), and that he did get an assist. Jericho didn't have quite such a luxury (you could argue his debut, but that was more of a self-contained moment to the WWF itself.)Quote:
For another thing... what the fuck do you mean more organically? I think a large part of Foley's success is attributed to how organically he got to the places he got to. This is a man that constantly sacrificed his body to appease the fans! He didn't need the help of the promotion to get over (which Jericho occasionally did need in the WWE, I might add), he got himself over, mostly by doing crazy shit.
It's close, definitely, and there's good arguments to be made for both (and you could make a good argument that Foley had a better career outside with his book sales). But I think with Jericho's longer career and achieving higher-highs, along with if this were to be treated as a match at their primes, Jericho would probably go over, considering none of Foley's world title reigns lasted longer than 4 weeks, I think Jericho has the slight advantage.Quote:
I will concede that Jericho certainly had a better career outside of WWE than Foley, there's no denying that. Maybe I'm a romantic, but I think Foley's shooting star of a career has had a bigger impact on the world of professional wrestling than Jericho's had. Foley was a weirdly successful character at a pivotal time in wrestling, and while there's no doubt Jericho has had a longer career than Foley with many more titles, it was Foley's role in history that made professional wrestling is what it is today, and while Mick Foley was shaping that world, Jericho was living in it.
For a guy that's had a longer career and done more than Foley, I can't really name any historic moments with him except that one that even WWE has problems making look good in video packages.
Foley had several. I imagine the better wrestler leaving the more lasting impact, and I just don't see it with Y2J like I do Mick Foley.
I give the edge to Y2J. He has better accolades , both wrestlers have had really entertaining angles and both are good on the Mic. Foley has had far better hardcore matches and will be remembered more for his brutal beatings he took in the ring more than anything else. Y2J has had better matches, won more titles, been in the main event longer, and looking over both careers...hes just the bigger, better star to wrestling than Foley.
???Quote:
Originally Posted by Spidercanrana
Not to say you're wrong with Foley (his title win, This Is Your Life, Cane Dewey, Hell In A Cell and his hardcore stuff, among others), but Y2J had:
His 1004 holds list.
His armbar.
His debut in the WWF.
His armbar.
His victory over both The Rock and Stone Cold in one night to unite two world championships.
His first great feud with Shawn Michaels.
His armbar.
His return in 2007.
His armbar.
His heel turn in 2008 and the run after that.
His second great feud with Shawn Michaels that he ultimately won.
His record-breaking amount of IC title wins.
His armbar.
His high-profile returns in 2012 and 2013.
His list of Jericho.
The festival of friendship.
His ability to work in New Japan with apparently Vince McMahon's blessing, putting on a classic with Kenny Omega.
But perhaps most important of all, his armbar.
(I'm sorry, but when you're talking about Jericho and lists, you can't miss that opportunity.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallout
In the day and age WWE plays their best hits ad nauseum, none of these are.
They were good. Save the Undisputed win, they were not all that memorable. Festival of Friendship is iffy.
EDIT: Kinda off topic, but who outside of diehard wrestling fans remembers Jericho's list of 1004 holds? Great segment, but it didn't exactly push the arrow back over to WCW or anything.
I've never realized how very much alike these two are until this point. Both were stepping stones for others. Both are considered great innovators in terms of their respective characters. Both have wrestled around the world. Both had a big championship winning moment. Both great on the mic. Probably both of them have made the same impact in the business. Both of them have a lot of memorable matches.
This is a close contest. So let's look at the differences. Foley had some big moments and a more midcardish career while Chris had and still has a main event status, thus more longevity. But IMO impact > longevity.
That's why I'm going with Mick Foley.
If you're talking about memorable Jericho moments it's best to avoid mentioning his record number of IC Title reigns, defeating The Rock and Austin in the same night and his 2007 return. Or his multiple returns for that matter.
Just to address the three posts above in one (as nobody has said anything particularly egregious), but I understand the case you're making for Foley is that in a mainstream context, he mattered more to wrestling, because of his impact in the Monday Night War, and I'll give you that, he had more of an impact in the Monday Night Raw (I mean, I don't think it's a fair comparison to compare early career Jericho with prime Foley, but whatever).
But let's watch that 4th January 1999 title win again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KybuIy0wKXk
You know, it's fun to rag on Jerry Lawler during his over-the-top heel run in 90's WWF, but he's completely right on one thing, even if it's out of context:
Cole: Mick Foley did it!
Lawler: No, Stone Cold did it!
The biggest pop was for the glass shatter. Not to say Foley didn't get a reaction in his own right, but he was in the right place at the right time more than anything else. The success of that segment, despite Foley's great celebration, was predicated not only on the WCW screw-up, but on Austin's arrival. I'm not trying to take the venom out of that segment, because it was a great segment, but if anything else, it put Austin over more than it did Foley.
I could have gone either way. Both are among my favourites, and both had the odds stacked against them for different reasons on their path to becoming main event stars. Jericho was certainly a main event longer, but did he ever have as feel good a moment as Foley did when beating the Rock. It's really tough to decide, but ultimately my vote has gone to Foley. Foley was a comedy face who became the World Heavyweight Champion. I can't think of anyone else who has ever done that, which to me means that Foley is the best wrestling comedian ever, amongst his other abilities whereas Jericho is one of the best at a whole host of things, but not the leader in anything. Oh it's hard, but I'm going Foley as I think his successes have resonated with me more in my time as a fan.
This is a matchup of 2 of my favorites, much like many other people here. As much as I'd love to see Mick Foley advance, as not only is he one of my favorites, but I've met the man at one of his shows and he is an awesome person, but Jericho has to move on here.
Mick Foley's 2 biggest moments are the Taker Cell Match (where he lost), and when he won his first title (Austin won the match for him). Couple that with the fact that his 3 title reigns lasted a combined 36 days, and he never once successfully defended the championship (he had a no-contest once and lost the belt the other 3 times), and his resume is not as strong as it appears.
Chris Jericho has won 5 Worlds Championships (WCW Title, Undisputed WWF Championship, and 3 World Heavyweight Championships). His reigns lasted a combined 222 days, with his Undisputed WWF Championship Reign lasting 98 days, nearly 3 times as long as all of Mick Foleys reigns combined. Finally, there's a very small list of people who can say they pinned both The Rock and Stone Cold Steve Austin on the same night. That list is one person long. His name is Chris Jericho.
In summation, Mick Foley made you happy, while Chris Jericho won. Considering that this is a tournament where the point is to win, I'll take the guy who wins.
Had to go with Jericho. Better wrestler, better athlete and his career doesn't revolve primarily around the crazy bumps he's taken in his career.
Don't get me wrong, I love Foley but I feel Jericho was too much inside the ring in a traditional 1 on 1 match for the Hardcore Legend. Jericho would probably have to deliver 5 or 6 Codebreakers to do it, but he'd do it.