NBA Discussion

[Fire Marshall Bill]

It's your argument. Your insinuation is that Jordan was successful without pulling strings with the team, no matter who his teammates were. It's a dishonest argument.

Jordan pulled strings also, so only criticizing James for it is silly. So I will keep making it, so long as you keep trying to undermine James by arguing he did what Jordan did.

YouÃ?â??re going to compare the two? James literally comes in and changes the entire team and anyone involved. Coaches and players. HeÃ?â??s already gotten the Lakers coach fired. ThereÃ?â??s literally already talk about the current one being filler until James works Kidd into that spot. Just wait.

The ironic thing is I would give him credit for bringing power back to the players. They practically do what they want now, assuming theyÃ?â??re good enough to leverage it. Just look at AD. But itÃ?â??s also turned the game into a joke, because thereÃ?â??s rarely competition anymore.

And James played against the 00's/10's Spurs and the 10's Warriors.

What's your point? That they both played against and lost against historically great teams/franchises? Because, yeah, I totally agree. That is exactly my point.

Also, in '85 Jordan's Bulls lost to the Bucks. In '86 and '87, the Bulls only played the Celtics because they were the #8 seed. In '88, '89 and '90, they lost to the Pistons, not the Celtics. And in '95, they lost to the Magic.

So...Jordan didn't just play against the Celtics, he lost to the Bucks, the Celtics, the Pistons and the Magic in the playoffs.

Using the Bad Boy Pistons? Really? At one time they had 4 Hall of Famers on their team. The core always had 3. 3, by the way, that didnÃ?â??t collude to play together. And 95 Jordan had just come back and clearly was not in form. If you want a nice Magic reference, how about James losing to them in the playoffs? IÃ?â??ll take Shaq and Penny all day against Dwight Howard and no one. The East has been a joke since 09.

And honestly, do we really not understand players have primes? Did I even bring up JamesÃ?â??s early years?

Ahh, so what you're saying is that when the teams of LeBron lost to all-time great coaches with below average coaches, it was just because James couldn't win, but when Jordan lost to all-time great coaches with below average coaches it was...completely different somehow?

As many times as it takes for you to admit you are wrong.

I forgot that the Dallas Mavericks were all timers. Nowitzki and who? Frankly, that shouldÃ?â??ve been JamesÃ?â??s easiest victory since theyÃ?â??re owned by one of David SternÃ?â??s most hated owners. He practically robbed him of a championship once before. That is entirely my opinion of course. But that is the worst championship of all time in my opinion (06 I mean).

[Slyfox696]

YouÃ?â??re going to compare the two?

Isn't that what the entire discussion is about?

James literally comes in and changes the entire team and anyone involved.

A) That's an exaggeration
B) Yes, he pulls strings to make the team he's on better. Just like Jordan did.

Coaches and players.

Doug Collins and Isiah Thomas say hi.

HeÃ?â??s already gotten the Lakers coach fired.

A) Luke Walton failed on his own before James got there.
B) Jordan had Collins fired, James had Blatt fired.

ThereÃ?â??s literally already talk about the current one being filler until James works Kidd into that spot. Just wait.

So...your argument is James pulls strings and the Lakers fired Walton for LeBron, only to hire a coach LeBron didn't want because LeBron wanted a former NBA head coach?

I'm not sure you see the inconsistency of that argument.

The ironic thing is I would give him credit for bringing power back to the players.

And he does deserve that credit, perhaps more than anyone else.

They practically do what they want now, assuming theyÃ?â??re good enough to leverage it. Just look at AD. But itÃ?â??s also turned the game into a joke, because thereÃ?â??s rarely competition anymore.

That's on the owners to figure out. They are the ones who decided to make the NBA a star driven league and they are the ones who have manipulated the league in such a way that there is no incentive to play for a loser. Also blame the media for their crazed obsession with determining quality of player by number of rings collected, even though that's a TERRIBLE way to judge greatness.

Using the Bad Boy Pistons? Really? At one time they had 4 Hall of Famers on their team.

Curry, Thompson, Green and Durant. Parker, Ginobbili, Duncan, Leonard.

Again, I am not sure you are making the argument you think you are.

The core always had 3. 3, by the way, that didnÃ?â??t collude to play together.

There was no little to no free agency at the time. Also, they had a competent roster. What's your point?

And 95 Jordan had just come back and clearly was not in form.

...so?

How come when LeBron goes to the NBA Finals and loses that is held against him, but when Michael is not good enough to get to the Finals, there is always some excuse?

If you want a nice Magic reference, how about James losing to them in the playoffs?

What about it? I'm not the one making arguments about championships.

Also, if you want to compare a Bulls team that was playoff caliber without Jordan to a Cavaliers team that became the worst in history when James left, then feel free. But I think we both know there's not a very good argument for you there, on multiple levels.

IÃ?â??ll take Shaq and Penny all day against Dwight Howard and no one. The East has been a joke since 09.

Yes, because the East was so tough during the 90s...

And honestly, do we really not understand players have primes? Did I even bring up JamesÃ?â??s early years?

I don't think I said anything about Jordan failing to reach the playoffs with the Wizards.

I forgot that the Dallas Mavericks were all timers. Nowitzki and who?

Jason Terry, Shawn Marion, Tyson Chandler and Jason Kidd.

And Rick Carlisle is a darn fine coach.

Frankly, that shouldÃ?â??ve been JamesÃ?â??s easiest victory

Agreed. And the Heat were the more talented team, though I think their depth and chemistry was not very good and that is often overlooked.

But at the end of the day, my point is pretty clear. Using championships to measure greatness is silly. But if we're using that metric, Jordan only went to the Finals 6 times, LeBron has been 9 (including 8 straight). Jordan lost to historically great teams (Boston, Detroit), but so did James (San Antonio, Golden State). Both have pulled strings with the team to better it and both are credited for getting coaches fired.

Championships and pulling strings are not my argument, but if it is your argument, then Jordan does not have an advantage.