NBA Discussion

[SSJPhenom]

Memphis may buy out Andre Igoudala's contract. If they do, the Lakers have said that they're keeping a roster spot open just in case that happens. If the Lakers get Iggy, they may well be unstoppable.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

No, he just had coaches fired and got eliminated out of the playoffs until he had a team around him that was playoff caliber even after he retired.

I love the coaches fired argument against Jordan when youâ??re arguing for Lebron James. Please keep making it.

And you do realize Jordan was playing against the 80â??s Celtics, right? Yeah, never mind. They sucked. Or, heaven forbid, getting seriously injured. I guess James has that on Jordan.

But, sure, I mean think of all those great years the Cavaliers have had after LeBron leaves, it is JUST like the Bulls in '94 and '95. Right?

Man, itâ??s almost as if proper coaching can win out if you actually know what youâ??re doing. Not like youâ??d appreciate that Maybe Gregg Popovich would.

How many times must we go through this, Sly?

[Slyfox696]

I love the coaches fired argument against Jordan when youâ??re arguing for Lebron James. Please keep making it.

It's your argument. Your insinuation is that Jordan was successful without pulling strings with the team, no matter who his teammates were. It's a dishonest argument.

Jordan pulled strings also, so only criticizing James for it is silly. So I will keep making it, so long as you keep trying to undermine James by arguing he did what Jordan did.

And you do realize Jordan was playing against the 80â??s Celtics, right? Yeah, never mind. They sucked. Or, heaven forbid, getting seriously injured. I guess James has that on Jordan.

And James played against the 00's/10's Spurs and the 10's Warriors.

What's your point? That they both played against and lost against historically great teams/franchises? Because, yeah, I totally agree. That is exactly my point.

Also, in '85 Jordan's Bulls lost to the Bucks. In '86 and '87, the Bulls only played the Celtics because they were the #8 seed. In '88, '89 and '90, they lost to the Pistons, not the Celtics. And in '95, they lost to the Magic.

So...Jordan didn't just play against the Celtics, he lost to the Bucks, the Celtics, the Pistons and the Magic in the playoffs.

Man, itâ??s almost as if proper coaching can win out if you actually know what youâ??re doing. Not like youâ??d appreciate that Maybe Gregg Popovich would.

Ahh, so what you're saying is that when the teams of LeBron lost to all-time great coaches with below average coaches, it was just because James couldn't win, but when Jordan lost to all-time great coaches with below average coaches it was...completely different somehow?

How many times must we go through this, Sly?

As many times as it takes for you to admit you are wrong.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

It's your argument. Your insinuation is that Jordan was successful without pulling strings with the team, no matter who his teammates were. It's a dishonest argument.

Jordan pulled strings also, so only criticizing James for it is silly. So I will keep making it, so long as you keep trying to undermine James by arguing he did what Jordan did.

YouÃ?â??re going to compare the two? James literally comes in and changes the entire team and anyone involved. Coaches and players. HeÃ?â??s already gotten the Lakers coach fired. ThereÃ?â??s literally already talk about the current one being filler until James works Kidd into that spot. Just wait.

The ironic thing is I would give him credit for bringing power back to the players. They practically do what they want now, assuming theyÃ?â??re good enough to leverage it. Just look at AD. But itÃ?â??s also turned the game into a joke, because thereÃ?â??s rarely competition anymore.

And James played against the 00's/10's Spurs and the 10's Warriors.

What's your point? That they both played against and lost against historically great teams/franchises? Because, yeah, I totally agree. That is exactly my point.

Also, in '85 Jordan's Bulls lost to the Bucks. In '86 and '87, the Bulls only played the Celtics because they were the #8 seed. In '88, '89 and '90, they lost to the Pistons, not the Celtics. And in '95, they lost to the Magic.

So...Jordan didn't just play against the Celtics, he lost to the Bucks, the Celtics, the Pistons and the Magic in the playoffs.

Using the Bad Boy Pistons? Really? At one time they had 4 Hall of Famers on their team. The core always had 3. 3, by the way, that didnÃ?â??t collude to play together. And 95 Jordan had just come back and clearly was not in form. If you want a nice Magic reference, how about James losing to them in the playoffs? IÃ?â??ll take Shaq and Penny all day against Dwight Howard and no one. The East has been a joke since 09.

And honestly, do we really not understand players have primes? Did I even bring up JamesÃ?â??s early years?

Ahh, so what you're saying is that when the teams of LeBron lost to all-time great coaches with below average coaches, it was just because James couldn't win, but when Jordan lost to all-time great coaches with below average coaches it was...completely different somehow?

As many times as it takes for you to admit you are wrong.

I forgot that the Dallas Mavericks were all timers. Nowitzki and who? Frankly, that shouldÃ?â??ve been JamesÃ?â??s easiest victory since theyÃ?â??re owned by one of David SternÃ?â??s most hated owners. He practically robbed him of a championship once before. That is entirely my opinion of course. But that is the worst championship of all time in my opinion (06 I mean).

[SSJPhenom]

Even I have to admit that there's no good argument to explain LBJ's meltdown in the 2011 Finals against Dallas. I know it was because they hadn't worked out whether he was the guy or whether it was Wade's team, but still, LBJ as a superstar should've said, "Give me the ball and get the hell out of the way"! Since then, however, LBJ has had a record run. 8 consecutive Finals appearances. The most for any non-Celtic. Some of the best numbers and performances in the post season. Averaging a triple double in the Finals. Taking the Warriors to 6 games when his next best player was Dellavedova. 12 consecutive All NBA 1st team selections. He's at least earned a spot in the conversation as greatest ever and by the end of his career I'm confident that he'll be the consensus best ever. Especially if he wins another title or two.

[Slyfox696]

YouÃ?â??re going to compare the two?

Isn't that what the entire discussion is about?

James literally comes in and changes the entire team and anyone involved.

A) That's an exaggeration
B) Yes, he pulls strings to make the team he's on better. Just like Jordan did.

Coaches and players.

Doug Collins and Isiah Thomas say hi.

HeÃ?â??s already gotten the Lakers coach fired.

A) Luke Walton failed on his own before James got there.
B) Jordan had Collins fired, James had Blatt fired.

ThereÃ?â??s literally already talk about the current one being filler until James works Kidd into that spot. Just wait.

So...your argument is James pulls strings and the Lakers fired Walton for LeBron, only to hire a coach LeBron didn't want because LeBron wanted a former NBA head coach?

I'm not sure you see the inconsistency of that argument.

The ironic thing is I would give him credit for bringing power back to the players.

And he does deserve that credit, perhaps more than anyone else.

They practically do what they want now, assuming theyÃ?â??re good enough to leverage it. Just look at AD. But itÃ?â??s also turned the game into a joke, because thereÃ?â??s rarely competition anymore.

That's on the owners to figure out. They are the ones who decided to make the NBA a star driven league and they are the ones who have manipulated the league in such a way that there is no incentive to play for a loser. Also blame the media for their crazed obsession with determining quality of player by number of rings collected, even though that's a TERRIBLE way to judge greatness.

Using the Bad Boy Pistons? Really? At one time they had 4 Hall of Famers on their team.

Curry, Thompson, Green and Durant. Parker, Ginobbili, Duncan, Leonard.

Again, I am not sure you are making the argument you think you are.

The core always had 3. 3, by the way, that didnÃ?â??t collude to play together.

There was no little to no free agency at the time. Also, they had a competent roster. What's your point?

And 95 Jordan had just come back and clearly was not in form.

...so?

How come when LeBron goes to the NBA Finals and loses that is held against him, but when Michael is not good enough to get to the Finals, there is always some excuse?

If you want a nice Magic reference, how about James losing to them in the playoffs?

What about it? I'm not the one making arguments about championships.

Also, if you want to compare a Bulls team that was playoff caliber without Jordan to a Cavaliers team that became the worst in history when James left, then feel free. But I think we both know there's not a very good argument for you there, on multiple levels.

IÃ?â??ll take Shaq and Penny all day against Dwight Howard and no one. The East has been a joke since 09.

Yes, because the East was so tough during the 90s...

And honestly, do we really not understand players have primes? Did I even bring up JamesÃ?â??s early years?

I don't think I said anything about Jordan failing to reach the playoffs with the Wizards.

I forgot that the Dallas Mavericks were all timers. Nowitzki and who?

Jason Terry, Shawn Marion, Tyson Chandler and Jason Kidd.

And Rick Carlisle is a darn fine coach.

Frankly, that shouldÃ?â??ve been JamesÃ?â??s easiest victory

Agreed. And the Heat were the more talented team, though I think their depth and chemistry was not very good and that is often overlooked.

But at the end of the day, my point is pretty clear. Using championships to measure greatness is silly. But if we're using that metric, Jordan only went to the Finals 6 times, LeBron has been 9 (including 8 straight). Jordan lost to historically great teams (Boston, Detroit), but so did James (San Antonio, Golden State). Both have pulled strings with the team to better it and both are credited for getting coaches fired.

Championships and pulling strings are not my argument, but if it is your argument, then Jordan does not have an advantage.

[SSJPhenom]

Well the NBA season kicked off in earnest last night and it was one of the best opening nights that I've seen in recent years.

Everyone is talking about how Toronto won last night but all I seen from them was that they were struggling with a Zion-less Pelicans who's main players were all new. I don't think Toronto is going to have a seat at the table of best teams in the East this year. That's clearly (and I know we've just begun but barring injury) going to be the Sixers and Bucks and maybe the Celtics. Once Durant comes back, the East may well be able to contend with the West as far as powerhouse teams go.

Then there was the epic Battle: Los Angeles. (See what I did there?) The two teams most people think are going to win it all are not only in the same city but they're in the same building. It was awesome to watch and some people think that the Clippers winning last night shows that they have the edge. I mean hell, they didn't even have Paul George last night. I'm not worried about the Lakers, though. Every player on the Lakers is new except for 3 people. So I expect them to struggle. Hell, even the coaches are new on the Lakers. It's going to take them the first 20 or so games to get it right. Also, they're dealing with injuries of their own with Rondo, Kuzma, and Cousins out. The Clippers, on the other hand, are the opposite. Everyone on their team, except for 2 players, played for them last year. They have the same coach and the same system. So I expect that the Clippers will be more impressive early on, but basketball, more than any other sport, comes down to who has the best players on their team. LBJ and AD are a better duo than Leonard and PG. So when it comes playoff time and the Lakers have had time to gel (again, barring injury), I expect that they'll be the better of the two and come out of the West to face the Sixers in the Finals.

That's right, I'm predicting it now! It'll be Lakers/Sixers for the 2020 Finals.

[Big Nick Dudley]

Dallas looks great, too. That's a duo. We're moving into the age of duos again, which I'm more than happy about. Makes the NBA far more competitive. I think the WCF ends up being Mavs/Clippers, ECF being Bucks/Sixers.

[#AbsoluteUnit]

Way too early to predict Eastern/Western Conference final match-ups.

[SSJPhenom]

Way too early to predict Eastern/Western Conference final match-ups.

If you had of said this last year or even a couple of years ago; I would've easily been able to argue the point. That's the beauty of this NBA season though. There's a legit 7 or 8 teams that have a realistic chance of competing for a championship this season. That's f'n awesome.

Having said that, I completely stand by my prediction. (Barring injury)