NBA Discussion

[Slyfox696]

At this point, there really shouldn't be much debate. LeBron is the greatest basketball player in history.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

They are roughly 4th in the Western conference, unless LeBron gets hurt.

Man, you really aren't a fan of him, are you?

I don?t like the era he created. Running off to play with the best players because they?re too lazy to work for it.

Can you imagine if Jordan ran off to play with Bird and Magic? He?d never be considered the greatest of all time. Hell, he gets enough shit for having Pippen, but people don?t seem to remember that Pippen wasn?t even an All-Star every year. And Jordan literally played with no other All-Stars besides him occasionally. But hey, he had tons of help.

I don?t expect some people around here to understand because they?re too young.

[BestSportsEntertainer]

If being lazy means you don't want to keep carrying a bad team after 7-8 years of having no help, sure today's players are lazy.

[Storm Trooper]

I don?t like the era he created. Running off to play with the best players because they?re too lazy to work for it.

Can you imagine if Jordan ran off to play with Bird and Magic? He?d never be considered the greatest of all time. Hell, he gets enough shit for having Pippen, but people don?t seem to remember that Pippen wasn?t even an All-Star every year. And Jordan literally played with no other All-Stars besides him occasionally. But hey, he had tons of help.

I don?t expect some people around here to understand because they?re too young.

I love Jordan and if I had to pick one to win a game I'm still picking Jordan. But you're way off here.

Jordan ran off twice. In 1993. Left the team for a year and a half. Then he ran off in 1998. LeBron "ran off" to go to another team, while Jordan ran off because he couldn't handle it anymore. LeBron NEVER ran off. He fulfilled his contractual obligations. He didn't force trades nor did he abruptly retire because he couldn't handle it.

Scottie Pippen was an All Star the entire Championship run for the Bulls until his injured 1998 season. Pippen is better than everyone LeBron played with (aside from POSSIBLY D-Wade).

[Slyfox696]

I don?t like the era he created. Running off to play with the best players because they?re too lazy to work for it.

You don't like the players empowering themselves and instead prefer the teams and their uber wealthy owners to have all the power?

I don't want that comment to sound cynical, but I am curious as to why.

Can you imagine if Jordan ran off to play with Bird and Magic?

He couldn't, really. Unrestricted free agency wasn't really a thing until '88. So unless he wanted to join forces with guys who were over the hill and close to retirement, it's not really a good comparison.

And I'm sure you might say, "Okay, but you get my point", but the problem is your point isn't valid. Jordan didn't, but Jordan really couldn't. And that's important.

Also, as Stormtrooper below points out, Jordan DID run off. He ran off in '94, but more importantly to this discussion, he ran off in '98 when the team told him (and the world) it wasn't going to keep the same team around Jordan. When Jordan saw that he wasn't as likely to win a championship, he quite literally ran off, only to re-emerge again 3 years later.

He?d never be considered the greatest of all time.

Babe Ruth isn't considered the greatest player of all time, despite going from Boston to New York? Wilt wasn't considered the greatest despite playing for 4 different teams? Brady won't retire as the greatest quarterback, despite playing for the Buccaneers? Montana didn't retire the greatest despite playing for the Chiefs?

Why would Jordan leaving to play elsewhere have any impact on his being the greatest?

Hell, he gets enough shit for having Pippen, but people don?t seem to remember that Pippen wasn?t even an All-Star every year.

Jordan doesn't get crap for playing with Pippen, people point out that LeBron having good teammates isn't disqualifying because Jordan had good teammates. The only difference is the Bulls put quality teammates around Jordan, and LeBron actually did the work to get quality teammates around himself.

Also, Pippen was an all-star in 90 and 92-97. He was an All-Star caliber player through Jordan's title runs.

And Jordan literally played with no other All-Stars besides him occasionally. But hey, he had tons of help.

That's rather misleading, given that Jordan played with Horace Grant (who was an All-Star in '94) and Dennis Rodman (who was a multiple time All-Star and regular on the All-Defensive team). I mean, using that logic, LeBron only played with one All-Star in Los Angeles.

I don?t expect some people around here to understand because they?re too young.

I'm not too young. I just think it doesn't make sense. Criticizing LeBron because he transformed the game by providing power to the ones who actually make the game profitable is just not something I understand.

I feel like you are looking at the game from a VERY owner centric point of view and it is clouding your ability to objective evaluate LeBron.

Scottie Pippen was an All Star the entire Championship run for the Bulls until his injured 1998 season. Pippen is better than everyone LeBron played with (aside from POSSIBLY D-Wade).

I'd put Pippen ahead of end of career D-Wade, but behind current Anthony Davis.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Scottie Pippen was an All Star the entire Championship run for the Bulls until his injured 1998 season. Pippen is better than everyone LeBron played with (aside from POSSIBLY D-Wade).

Simple google search proves this wrong. 1st championship, 1 All-Star, went by the name of Michael Jordan.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

You don't like the players empowering themselves and instead prefer the teams and their uber wealthy owners to have all the power?

I don't want that comment to sound cynical, but I am curious as to why.

He couldn't, really. Unrestricted free agency wasn't really a thing until '88. So unless he wanted to join forces with guys who were over the hill and close to retirement, it's not really a good comparison.

And I'm sure you might say, "Okay, but you get my point", but the problem is your point isn't valid. Jordan didn't, but Jordan really couldn't. And that's important.

Also, as Stormtrooper below points out, Jordan DID run off. He ran off in '94, but more importantly to this discussion, he ran off in '98 when the team told him (and the world) it wasn't going to keep the same team around Jordan. When Jordan saw that he wasn't as likely to win a championship, he quite literally ran off, only to re-emerge again 3 years later.

Babe Ruth isn't considered the greatest player of all time, despite going from Boston to New York? Wilt wasn't considered the greatest despite playing for 4 different teams? Brady won't retire as the greatest quarterback, despite playing for the Buccaneers? Montana didn't retire the greatest despite playing for the Chiefs?

Why would Jordan leaving to play elsewhere have any impact on his being the greatest?

Jordan doesn't get crap for playing with Pippen, people point out that LeBron having good teammates isn't disqualifying because Jordan had good teammates. The only difference is the Bulls put quality teammates around Jordan, and LeBron actually did the work to get quality teammates around himself.

Also, Pippen was an all-star in 90 and 92-97. He was an All-Star caliber player through Jordan's title runs.

That's rather misleading, given that Jordan played with Horace Grant (who was an All-Star in '94) and Dennis Rodman (who was a multiple time All-Star and regular on the All-Defensive team). I mean, using that logic, LeBron only played with one All-Star in Los Angeles.

I'm not too young. I just think it doesn't make sense. Criticizing LeBron because he transformed the game by providing power to the ones who actually make the game profitable is just not something I understand.

I feel like you are looking at the game from a VERY owner centric point of view and it is clouding your ability to objective evaluate LeBron.

I'd put Pippen ahead of end of career D-Wade, but behind current Anthony Davis.

I?m not replying to all of this because we?ve gone back and forth on this many times, but I?m not giving James shit for empowering players. I?ve actually given him props for that very thing in the past, but that doesn?t fit your agenda. I?m simply saying joining forces with the best players in order to win championships hurts your legacy. I used Bird and Magic as examples, but as you pointed out, they might not have been the best examples. Please insert any examples you feel are better (Barkley, Ewing, Robinson, etc). My point still stands.

[Storm Trooper]

Simple google search proves this wrong. 1st championship, 1 All-Star, went by the name of Michael Jordan.

He was an all star player the year before and every year after leading up until the injury-ravaged 1997-98 year. Including the year Jordan ran off because he couldn't hack it any more.

Seriously if that's all you took from everything I said there's no hope for you.

Lets look at All-NBA teams.

Pippen: 3 1st teams, 2 2nd teams, 2 3rds. 8 Defensive 1sts, 2 Defensive 2nds.
Wade: 2 1sts, 3 2nds, 3 3rds. 0 Defensive 1sts, 2 Defensive 2nds.

Honestly it isn't really close. Pippen has more 1st teams, and the 8 Defensive 1sts is insane, compared to the zero for Dwayne Wade.



Also, building a winning team has nothing to do with the individual player, so to say that LeBron didn't "work for it" to build a successful team is asinine, because it is not his job to do that, it is the job of the General Manager.



Honestly I don't see a wrong answer here, I think if you take either one you're in good shape, I just can't understand anybody knocking either one. If you put a gun to my head I'm probably taking Jordan because I grew up watching him, but I'm just as happy if I get LeBron instead. The real question you're looking into is do you want Jerry Krause or whoever the hell ran the Cavs in the mid 00's. Jerry Krause built a winner (then blew it up but that's a different story that ESPN covered very well). The Cavs didn't, that's why LeBron left.

[Slyfox696]

I?m not replying to all of this because we?ve gone back and forth on this many times, but I?m not giving James shit for empowering players. I?ve actually given him props for that very thing in the past, but that doesn?t fit your agenda. I?m simply saying joining forces with the best players in order to win championships hurts your legacy.

You still didn't answer how playing with other great players hurts one's legacy, nor how Jordan playing with Pippen doesn't hurt his legacy but LeBron playing with AD hurts LeBrons.

At the end of the day, what is the difference, beyond the fact LeBron took the power and Jordan didn't? Why is it the Bulls putting Pippen next to Jordan is okay for legacy, but LeBron putting Davis next to him is not okay for legacy?

I used Bird and Magic as examples, but as you pointed out, they might not have been the best examples. Please insert any examples you feel are better (Barkley, Ewing, Robinson, etc). My point still stands.

Except Jordan didn't have to leave the Bulls to play with Barkley or Ewing or anyone else to win because by the time he could have done so, he was already on a team with arguably the best coach in NBA history, one of the top players in NBA history and a host of other quality players.

And, again, when the Bulls told Jordan that was no longer going to be the case in '98, Jordan ran off.

Honestly I don't see a wrong answer here, I think if you take either one you're in good shape, I just can't understand anybody knocking either one.

I don't think anyone can argue that having either LeBron or Jordan puts you in a great position to win.

[SSJPhenom]

Damn I'm mad that I missed this debate.

Anyways, yes, at this point there really isn't much debate left. LeBron is the greatest player in NBA History.