The following match is scheduled for one fall. The match is held in San Antonio, TX and is a Round of 32 matchup. All seeds represent overall tournament seeding.
#16 Chris Jericho vs. #17 Mick Foley
The discussion period will last for two days, followed by two days for voting. You may vote for whomever you feel deserves to win this match. Please post your reasons below if you wish.
I'm favoring Mick Foley here, honestly. In their prime, Foley was losing to the faces of the company while Y2J was getting his ass handed to him by midcard and main eventer alike. He was a charisma machine, not a winning machine. I would go as far as to say both were stepping stones to the major stars, and Jericho just happened to be stepped on more than Mick. That on top of Foley not tapping to anybody in his heyday really creates a problem for The Walls of Jericho. I think Mick Foley could push through and give the fans a feel good moment for the first round.
I will abstain from voting until the last day in case somebody comes along with a better argument, but how I see it currently, this is Jericho's to lose.
I have to disagree with you. The fact is, for all of Foley's accomplishments, his run as a main-eventer was comparatively short. He languished in the midcard in WCW, went to the WWF and worked the midcard for years there as well. For goodness sake, his most memorable moments include a sock he kept in his crotch.Originally Posted by Spidercanrana
Jericho, on the other hand, has not only been a long-time main-eventer but also has done while constantly reinventing himself. He's done it with fantastic matches, great promos and he's managed to do it while also putting over newer talent. I have to give Jericho the nod here.
Both guys were consistently near the top, versatile in their performances, able to rally fans behind them with natural charisma, but I think Jericho has the edge here. Jericho accomplished more than Foley did during his career, and whilst being around for longer, he managed to remain consistent, and sparked a career renaissance Foley never accomplished upon his return at the end of 2007 and his heel turn the year after. Jericho probably has the more embarrassing losses (Fandango, anyone?), but I also think his career hit higher highs than Foley did.
Ultimately, I think KB's comments on Mikey Stormrage are pretty apt to describe Foley: He works better as a chaser than a champion. The actual championship win is a legendary moment, but the reign itself was very short. Prime Jericho has more tools at his disposal to beat Prime Foley.
"We are not entitled to our opinions. We are entitled to our informed opinions." - Harlan Ellison (1934 - 2018)
Tough match. I'd say that, at his peak, that Mankind was more popular than Jericho. You could argue that was a result of Foley working with top notch talent like Kane, Undertaker, Austin, Rock, and Trips at the time, and while that certainly helped, Mankind was involved in the highest rated segment in RAW history. 600,000 households changed over from Nitro to RAW to watch him win the world title. Foley was undeniably popular. It's been touched on, but Mankind was a sympathetic character. But he really couldn't be pushed as an underdog, because he was 6'2 and 300 pounds. So the character had to be dicked over, undermined, cheated, and be made to look stupid to get that pity from the fans. But it worked because Foley was just so good at playing that character. Fans just wanted to see that character succeed. He was dynamic, charismatic, and entertaining. But so was Jericho.
Jericho, unlike Foley, looked like a champion. He acted like a champion. He was built like a champion. It's no wonder why WWE has tasked him so many times at carrying either the mid card or world titles for short periods of time. That's something Foley wouldn't have been able to do. Jericho might have been a transitional champion most of the time, but Foley, either as Mankind or Cactus, was a novelty act most of the time. Mick was often there to boost the segments of the show. Jericho could not only do that, but was often there to boost the credibility of the titles too. I think because of that, it makes Jericho the better wrestler.
Vote Jericho.
Fallout liked this post
Didn't Jericho beat Foley multiple times while Foley never beat Jericho? I thought that was a joke in Foley's hall of fame speech but I could have my information wrong. Anyway Jericho has my vote currently. Longer run at the top and one could argue he's had multple primes over the years.
Foley and Jericho have kind of a similar story when it comes to their wrestling career: absolute fan favorites regardless of if they're heels or faces, portrayed multiple types of characters successfully, and had brushes with superstardom while never quite making it to the pinnacle of the wrestling world.
The reason I give Foley the nod over Jericho here is because Foley struck one of the biggest blows in the Monday Night Wars when his spoiled championship victory stole millions of viewers away from Nitro. People wanted to see Foley win the championship so badly that they tuned out of a live television show to watch something they already knew was going to happen. Jericho's defection from WCW to WWE was certainly one of WWE's biggest steals in the Monday Night Wars, but it was Mick Foley that helped turn the tables in that battle.
I can't begrudge anyone voting Jericho over Foley. Jericho certainly had a more innovative style of wrestling, he has the edge on longevity and titles, and he's also had a much more lucrative career outside of wrestling (remember when he hosted that NBC gameshow where they dropped stuff off the side of a building?). But when it comes to drawing power, impact on the sport, and overall prestige, I have to give Foley a slight edge.
I get your argument, and it's perfectly valid, but Foley struck me as more of a person being in the right place at the right time. Half, if not, most of the success of that segment was because it was juxtaposed with one of the biggest wrestling fuck-ups ever recorded. People switched from Nitro to Raw when Schiavone spoiled the match, then came back to witness the poke. It was a one-two punch to WCW, with the second punch being done by WCW themselves. Foley winning was a great moment regardless, and he did deliver a hell of a promo afterwards, but I think given the circumstances, another WCW alumni (let's say, Goldust) could have achieved something similar with the right handling and reputation. Jericho achieved his success more organically, things didn't quite fall into his lap that way. Not to take away from Foley's achievements or reputation, as this is a close match, nor am I arguing against the reality of what happened, but there's more to it than just the WWF side of the story.
"We are not entitled to our opinions. We are entitled to our informed opinions." - Harlan Ellison (1934 - 2018)
I get what you're saying, but I don't think the fame of Foley's win/WCW spoiling it is dependent on the fame of The Poke. In fact, I didn't even know that was the same night until you just told me now, and I know a lot of shit about wrestling.
I don't like this argument for a few reasons.Foley winning was a great moment regardless, and he did deliver a hell of a promo afterwards, but I think given the circumstances, another WCW alumni (let's say, Goldust) could have achieved something similar with the right handling and reputation. Jericho achieved his success more organically, things didn't quite fall into his lap that way. Not to take away from Foley's achievements or reputation, as this is a close match, nor am I arguing against the reality of what happened, but there's more to it than just the WWF side of the story.
For one thing, the "if they had the right handling..." is the most tired argument there is. If Jeff Hardy was handled right, he could be bigger than Cena right now. Just as valid an argument as Goldust being able to match Foley's level with the right handling.
For another thing... what the fuck do you mean more organically? I think a large part of Foley's success is attributed to how organically he got to the places he got to. This is a man that constantly sacrificed his body to appease the fans! He didn't need the help of the promotion to get over (which Jericho occasionally did need in the WWE, I might add), he got himself over, mostly by doing crazy shit.
I will concede that Jericho certainly had a better career outside of WWE than Foley, there's no denying that. Maybe I'm a romantic, but I think Foley's shooting star of a career has had a bigger impact on the world of professional wrestling than Jericho's had. Foley was a weirdly successful character at a pivotal time in wrestling, and while there's no doubt Jericho has had a longer career than Foley with many more titles, it was Foley's role in history that made professional wrestling is what it is today, and while Mick Foley was shaping that world, Jericho was living in it.
Think you misunderstood, I'm not saying the legacy is dependant on the poke, but the initial success of it was in large part because of the juxtaposition.
Again, think you're missing my point. I'm not trying to say Goldust is better than Foley because he's obviously not, nor am I strictly saying he could have been. My point is, a lot of the WCW audience changed the channel on the basis that they knew Mick Foley, as they would have known Dustin Rhodes. Admittedly, this is a gut feeling more than something objectively true, because no-one could analyse everyone's reasons as to why they changed the channel's mindset, especially not me. But I don't think a WWE homegrown star would have gotten such a reception, and I think Goldust, if in a similar position to Foley, would have achieved the same effect because of his past in WCW. This isn't an unrealistic "What if Flair was in 1999 WWF" argument, which is why I specifically chose Goldust, since he was in the company at the time.I don't like this argument for a few reasons.
For one thing, the "if they had the right handling..." is the most tired argument there is. If Jeff Hardy was handled right, he could be bigger than Cena right now. Just as valid an argument as Goldust being able to match Foley's level with the right handling.
Oh yeah, in general, I do agree with you completely on Foley, I'm just talking about January 4th here, as everyone's been talking about it as his biggest moment (which it probably is), and that he did get an assist. Jericho didn't have quite such a luxury (you could argue his debut, but that was more of a self-contained moment to the WWF itself.)For another thing... what the fuck do you mean more organically? I think a large part of Foley's success is attributed to how organically he got to the places he got to. This is a man that constantly sacrificed his body to appease the fans! He didn't need the help of the promotion to get over (which Jericho occasionally did need in the WWE, I might add), he got himself over, mostly by doing crazy shit.
It's close, definitely, and there's good arguments to be made for both (and you could make a good argument that Foley had a better career outside with his book sales). But I think with Jericho's longer career and achieving higher-highs, along with if this were to be treated as a match at their primes, Jericho would probably go over, considering none of Foley's world title reigns lasted longer than 4 weeks, I think Jericho has the slight advantage.I will concede that Jericho certainly had a better career outside of WWE than Foley, there's no denying that. Maybe I'm a romantic, but I think Foley's shooting star of a career has had a bigger impact on the world of professional wrestling than Jericho's had. Foley was a weirdly successful character at a pivotal time in wrestling, and while there's no doubt Jericho has had a longer career than Foley with many more titles, it was Foley's role in history that made professional wrestling is what it is today, and while Mick Foley was shaping that world, Jericho was living in it.
"We are not entitled to our opinions. We are entitled to our informed opinions." - Harlan Ellison (1934 - 2018)
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